The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Jane Dodds.

Ambulance Response Times

Jane Dodds AS: 1. Will the First Minister make a statement on ambulance response times? OQ59013

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Jane Dodds, Llywydd, for that question. Record levels of demand have placed real pressures on ambulance response times, with lengthy delays for some patients. Nevertheless, in December—the most difficult month—the service responded to the highest ever number of red calls within the eight-minute target.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you for that response.

Jane Dodds AS: It's 13:30. If somebody phones 999 now because they have chest pains, when would you expect an ambulance to arrive? I'm sure you'll recognise that question from the leader of the Labour Party in Westminster, Keir Starmer, to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister refused a straight answer, so I'm hoping that we can get a straight answer from you this afternoon. But, from NHS Wales stats, we know that, for the person who's just called 999 with those chest pains—surprisingly not a red call, but an amber call—they will likely wait over an hour for an ambulance to arrive. If the person who'd just called 999 was in a life-threatening situation—a red call—they could wait as long as 15 minutes in Powys. The target, as you know, for those red calls, is eight minutes, and the last time those targets were met was July 2020, and the figures have been in free fall ever since.Our ambulance staff work incredibly hard under very difficult circumstances. 'Diolch' to them all. So, could you tell me when you expect these targets to be met? Will it be another two and a half years before the red call targets can be met? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, let me, first of all, answer the specific question that Jane Dodds asked in introducing her supplementary question. The management information provided in the Welsh NHS suggests that, last week, the week beginning 16 January, had it been a red call, the standard waiting time—the median waiting time—from the minute a call is dispatched to it arriving with a patient was seven minutes, 43 seconds. That means, given the time that a first question on a Tuesday normally takes, by the time the question is over, the ambulance would have left and arrived. And if it were an amber call, as Jane Dodds suggested, then the average response time last week—the standard response time—was 38 minutes, 52 seconds.
On the broader point, when the ambulance service last reached the target that we have set for it, it had done so for 48 months consecutively. And what happened was, in July 2020, the impact of the pandemic undid those four years of absolutely consistently meeting the targets that had been set. It is a slow recovery from all of that. But, Llywydd, as I said, it is not necessarily because the supply of service has diminished; it's because the demand for the service has gone up. In December, more calls than at any other time—more than any month in that 48-month period—more calls were answered within the target time. It is simply that the volume of calls far exceeds anything that happened in any one of those months, and despite, as Jane Dodds very fairly said, the enormous efforts of ambulance staff, when you have a rise in demand of that sort, the percentage of calls that are answered within the target time cannot be sustained.The combination of additional investment and, particularly, additional staff, is the way in which we will succeed in returning the ambulance to the level of achievement that it itself would wish to see for its patients.

Russell George AC: First Minister, in December, less than 40 per cent of life-threatening calls received an ambulance response time within your Government's eight-minute target—a record low. And if that isn't a crisis, then I wonder what is a crisis. But, given the pressure on the ambulance service, which I understand the reasons for, the Wales air ambulance service is, of course, all the more crucial for constituents like mine in mid Wales. So, given the state of the overall ambulance service in Wales, can I ask if the current service levels will be taken into account in the Wales air ambulance review, which is currently under way, and, if they aren't, do you think they should be? As you know, there is great respect and support for the Wales air ambulance, and it's greatly appreciated by the people of mid Wales. There is anxiety at the moment with people who are waiting for an ambulance, and their families as well, but there's even greater anxiety in mid Wales, and I hope you can understand how the current proposals are causing significant anxiety across my constituency.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, as I know Russell George will be aware, the chief ambulance service commissioner is leading a review on behalf of the Emergency Ambulance Services Committee. That review is now in the period of formal engagement; no decision on the outcome has been made. And the points that the Member makes, and makes powerfully on behalf of his constituents, will of course be heard in that review, alongside all the other evidence. The aim of the Wales air ambulance service, which is absolutely a very highly respected and very effective service, is to use the resources it has in a way that reaches the largest number of patients and delivers them that effective service. That will be the basis of the review.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: There are so many things, of course, that contribute to the pressures on the ambulance service, the kinds of pressures that forced a constituent of mine to wait 24 hours for an ambulance, having broken her hip. Now, the five-point plan for health and care services, published today by Plaid Cymru in partnership with many health organisations, touches upon some of the elements that could help in the short term and the longer term in responding to those pressures: the need to settle the pay dispute, supporting the workforce, improving patient flow through the system, and operating in a more preventative way in order to reduce pressures on the ambulance service and other services. It all interweaves. Does the First Minister agree with me that what we are seeing in the pressures on the ambulance service is the best example, possibly, of the unsustainable health system that we have, and a health system in crisis, and that we must acknowledge that in order to start providing solutions and resolutions?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for that question. I've had a brief opportunity to have a look at the plan that Plaid Cymru published today. What the pressure on the ambulance service means is that demand for health services over the winter has been very great—greater than at any time in the history of the NHS. We have a plan already. Of course, we're willing to consider the points in the Plaid Cymru plan to see whether there is more that can be done. But, through the financial investment that we're making, but also, as I said in my reply to Jane Dodds, our investment in more people to work in the area, that's the way to try and help us to do better in the future.

Rhianon Passmore AC: First Minister, it is important that all of us here in Senedd Cymru, the Welsh Parliament, are candid about the real challenges facing our beloved national health service right across the four nations of the United Kingdom. In England, in December, calls from people with life-threatening illness or injuries saw an ambulance response time of 10 minutes and 57 seconds. In Wales, in December, the average response time was 10 minutes, where previously the average, over the four years up to that month, was six minutes. So, two neighbouring countries with almost identical ambulance response times in December for the most urgent calls. Yet, there is one fundamental difference between Wales and England: Wales is led by the Labour Party, which created the national health service and will do all that it can to forever ensure that it continues to be free at the point of care for those who call on its services, whilst in England, the Tory UK Government and ex-English health secretary Sajid Javid are openly theorising about introducing changes and charges to even see a GP—privatisation through the front door. First Minister, what assurances, then, can you give the people of Islwyn and Wales that our NHS will be prioritised in Wales as a truly national, free public health service that lives up to its illustrious legacy, is fit for purpose and offers peace of mind that, when 999 is called, an ambulance will promptly arrive?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the urgent call ambulance that was dispatched when Jane Dodds asked me her question has now been at the scene for the last three minutes. I say that just to give colleagues here some sense of the service that continues to be provided in every part of Wales. I give Rhianon Passmore an assurance, of course, that here in Wales there are no plans to use the pressures faced by the national health service as an excuse to do away with that service. There's no doubt at all, is there, that there are elements in the Conservative Party nationally who think that the pressures that the health service faces are an excuse to undo the work that that service provides across the whole of the United Kingdom. We will never do that here in Wales, where the health Minister and the First Minister, who are responsible for these services in Wales, are able to give Rhianon Passmore exactly the assurance she was asking for.

Public Transport Accessibility

Joel James MS: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on the accessibility of public transport for those who are visually impaired? OQ59018

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. We recognise the importance of making public transport in Wales safe, welcoming and accessible to everyone. We will continue to work with Transport for Wales, local authorities and the public transport providers to ensure services are designed and delivered with the involvement of those with direct experience of visual impairment.

Joel James MS: Thank you, First Minister. As I am sure you'll agree with me, the experience that some disabled people have in Wales when they're accessing public transport still falls woefully short of the standards that we expect and they deserve. I regularly receive communication from residents in my region complaining about the lack of thought and care for them and their needs, and a recent e-mail from a resident who has just lost her eyesight shows how frightening and dangerous travelling by rail from the Valleys into Cardiff, and then on to elsewhere, can be. There was no assistance available for them when boarding or departing any of the trains, which was terrifying for them because of the large gap between the train and the platform. They also received no help whatsoever in trying to get through the ticket barriers, which caused considerable panic as they struggled to find the ticket slot. Moreover, not only were they unable to purchase a ticket prior to travel, as there was no ticket office and the machines weren't suitable for those with visual impairment, but they were even prevented from using their railcard by the onboard ticket collector as they had not purchased their ticket prior to travel, which was actually the wrong course of action. Therefore, First Minister, I'd like to know what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the problems of those who are visually impaired or suffer from blindness are experiencing when using rail services in Wales? And what assurances can you give that assistance will be made available for those with visual impairment and other disabilities when accessing the new south Wales metro system? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Joel James for that. It's never good to hear of the sort of experience that he has set out, but I am able to say to him and to the Chamber that this topic was absolutely at the forefront of a recent meeting of the ministerial disability equality forum, chaired by my colleague Jane Hutt, at the end of November—a meeting that focused on the experience of people with disabilities, including a good representation of people who are themselves visually impaired, together with the chief executive of Transport for Wales and senior Welsh Government transport staff. That meeting will be followed up with a further meeting in February. The meeting did explore some of the barriers that people who face difficulties in using public transport have experienced in making their voices powerfully heard with the providers of that transport. But it was a very full and frank exchange of those views, and the conclusion was that it had opened up the way to make sure that, for those people who give their time voluntarily to be part of the accessibility panel that Transport for Wales holds, the work can be more effective in making sure that services are properly available to people who are visually impaired or have other disabilities in the future. That disability panel has been there for some time; it has already had an impact on the work of Transport for Wales. I'm sure, given the account that Joel James read out, he will want to congratulate Transport for Wales on its decision not to close ticket offices in Wales as has been announced for every station in England.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, turning to bus services, which are, of course, the most heavily utilised part of our public transport system, and, obviously, in light of the fact that the Welsh Government is developing its proposals for legislative change and a new model for running bus services, talking signs are one solution whereby people affected by sight loss can access travel information at bus stops. Has any consideration been given to introducing similar schemes here in Wales in light of the proposals around the future of our bus services?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Vikki Howells for that. The White Paper that we published in advance of the bus Bill set out plans to include passenger voices at the very top level of a new bus system, to make sure that direct feedback from people who use that service, and particularly those who need additional assistance to do so, are heard powerfully in the system we intend to create. The idea that Vikki Howells has suggested of bus stops being able to provide information that you can hear as well as information that you can see is something that we will discuss with local authorities as part of a wider programme of work to make bus stops more accessible to a wider range of people. The legislative proposals that we will bring in front of the Senedd will certainly make it easier to share high-quality and up-to-date information about bus services and, therefore, to make them more accessible to passengers.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, many of us would have watched the tv programme last night and found it deeply uncomfortable, the revelations on BBC Wales about the culture, and the weekly and monthly difficulties that women in sport, in Welsh rugby face. These allegations, obviously, some are proven and some are unproven. I make no direct allegations against any individual, but the programme set out a very troubling sequence of events that was corroborated by several witnesses who had been at the coalface at the Welsh Rugby Union.
I understand that the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport has spoken with the Welsh Rugby Union today, or certainly very recently. Are you able to update what actions the Welsh Government are taking to engage with the Welsh Rugby Union in light of these allegations? And are you minded, on what you've seen so far, to engage further so that these allegations can be put to rest, and make sure that whoever chooses to play rugby here in Wales, whether they are men or women, plays in a safe environment, an environment that values the contribution that they make to the sport and, above all, the national position that the Welsh Rugby Union holds within our great country?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I entirely agree with the sentiments with which the leader of the opposition ended his question. The meeting between Dawn Bowden and the Welsh Rugby Union took place yesterday afternoon. The Welsh Government, in that meeting, made it clear to the WRU that we need to see urgent and transparent action that helps restore confidence in the WRU itself, and that requires a public recognition on the part of the WRU of the scale and nature of the issues that were rehearsed in that programme. We will absolutely continue to engage with the WRU. As Andrew Davies says, it occupies a place in Welsh public life and it needs itself to recognise that significance. We will continue to be in a challenging, where necessary, conversation with them to make sure that a future is set out for the Welsh Rugby Union that commands the confidence of all of those who are players of the game and who are engaged in wanting to see it have a successful future.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that response, First Minister. I today have written to the Chair of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee here in the Senedd, inviting that committee to give consideration to what role it might be able to play in supporting those who've obviously found themselves on the receiving end of this treatment, but also working with the Welsh Rugby Union to, obviously, put in safeguards and make sure best practice is brought to the fore for our national institution, which many of us care very deeply about.
If I could raise another subject with you, which, as you said in response to an earlier question from the Member from Islwyn, is your responsibility, and that of the health Minister, and that is the fabric of our hospitals here in Wales. Last week, a report highlighted the poor fabric of buildings within the Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board area, in particular the Abergele hospital, where 85 per cent of the estate of Abergele hospital is deemed operationally unsafe and does not meet the requirements of the health and safety regulations that any other place would have to meet. Across the Betsi Cadwaladr health board area, only 62 per cent of the estate meets that operationally safe caveat or requirement. As you said in response earlier to the Member from Islwyn, you are responsible, your health Minister's responsible, this health board has been in special measures for six years under direct Government control, why has this situation developed, and will you apologise for it?

Mark Drakeford AC: Let me begin for a moment, Llywydd, by agreeing with what the leader of the opposition said in opening this second question, which is that I think that there is a potential role for a Senedd committee in helping to secure a path for the WRU to a better future by using the powers that a committee here has to look into the allegations and to assist in, as I say, finding a better way ahead.
As to the second question that the Member asked, we have committed more than £335 million in this financial year, in capital expenditure, to the Welsh NHS. We will commit a further £375 million next year for the same purposes. We face sites that are 30 years and more old, where there are compliance issues being identified, as organisations undertake survey work. And the call on that capital is huge. Last week, I answered a question from the leader of the opposition's colleague Darren Millar, who made a case that he's made regularly on the floor of the Senedd, for investment in a new hospital that would serve people in his constituency. I said then that that scheme would have to be assessed by the board, alongside its many other priorities. It is simply the fact that the call for capital expenditure in the Welsh NHS exceeds our ability to fulfil that demand—and some of the figures, actually, you have to treat them a little bit more carefully than I think the leader of opposition was treating them in his question—and you have to find a way of meeting the most urgent demands from the capital that we have for those purposes.

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, the figures I have quoted you are directly out of the board papers from the Betsi Cadwaladr health board. They're not figures that I have made up. At Abergele hospital, only 15 per cent of that hospital is deemed operationally safe. As I said, across the Betsi Cadwaladr health board area, only 62 per cent of the health estate is deemed operationally safe. Across the whole of Wales, that figure rises ever so slightly to 72 per cent.
If we are ever going to get on top of the waiting times, if we are ever going to offer staff and patients a twenty-first century environment to work in, surely making sure that the health estate across Wales—leave alone the Betsi Cadwaladr health board area—is operationally safe should be a priority for your Government, which, as you said, is your responsibility, and your health Minister's responsibility. So I ask you again: will you apologise to the staff who have to work in the environment that I've described in my question to you? And can you give us an indication of when we will start seeing real improvement in the health estate in Wales, so that we do not find hospitals where 85 per cent of their area is operationally unsafe?

Mark Drakeford AC: The capital budgets available to the Welsh Government go down every year; they are 8 per cent lower next year than they are this year. Where does the Member think the money comes from to do the things that he suggests? Not only that, but our capital borrowing limit has remained unchanged since 2016. These are not decisions of the Welsh Government; they are decisions of the Government that he supports.
I would just say to him again—I'll do it slowly, so that he can think about it—that the amount of money available to the Welsh Government is—[Interruption.] I would prefer that he didn't point at me from where he is sitting. I'll try again, because he doesn't listen, but I'm going to try again to explain to him that if your capital budget is falling every year and your ability to borrow is capped at the level that it was, now, seven years ago, then our ability to do the things that we would like to do is constrained by decisions that are not in the hands of the Welsh Government, but are in the hands of his friends and his colleagues, and there we are. Let him think about that and maybe he'll have a better question for me next time.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Llywydd.
'So for one week will he stop blaming others, take some responsibility, and just admit that on his watch the NHS is in crisis, isn't it?'
I'm quoting the leader of the Labour Party, Keir Starmer, to Rishi Sunak last week at Prime Minister's questions, but they're words that could equally apply to you, First Minister. Labour in Scotland has described the situation in the NHS as being in a state of crisis there also. Why is it that you, as a party, are prepared to declare the NHS to be in crisis everywhere else apart from here in Wales, where you have responsibility and have done so for over 25 years?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I will have lost count of the number of times that I have said in this Chamber that the NHS in Wales is under enormous pressure and that it is not able to do all of the things that we would like it to do in the way that we would like it to do them. If the leader of Plaid Cymru thinks that attaching a label to that somehow, by itself, makes all of that any better, then that is not a point of view that I share.

Adam Price AC: Well, words matter because actually admitting that it's a crisis is an important acknowledgement of the scale, the seriousness and the urgency of the challenges that we face. I think the reason that you don't want to use that word is because the crisis has developed and deepened under you and under your Government. Health is devolved. Five Ministers in your Government—a majority in the Cabinet—have been health Ministers, and it's time you took collective responsibility for the mess the NHS is in.
In refusing to provide health workers with a decent pay rise, you, the Labour Party, are turning your back on health workers, while it's us, in this party, who are standing shoulder to shoulder with them on the picket line. You're rightly proud in the Labour Party that you were there and responsible for the birth of the NHS, but if you don't fundamentally change your policy then you will be responsible for its demise.
The UK Government is refusing as well to acknowledge there's a crisis; they haven't held any COBRA meetings during the NHS emergency there. In Scotland, the equivalent has met three times over the last few months to discuss the problems in the NHS. How often has the Welsh equivalent been convened over this winter to reflect the national emergency we are now facing?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, there were figures published last week of performance in the Welsh NHS. Here is the crisis service that the Member described: all waits in the health service in Wales fell in November. The total number of people waiting fell; the total number of people who were waiting over 26 weeks fell, over 52 weeks fell, over two years fell. The number of people waiting for a therapy appointment fell; the number of people waiting for—[Interruption.] These are the facts of the matter. If you want to describe a service that has succeeded in every one of those things as a crisis, that is fine for you to do.
This was a service that, in November, had recovered in-patient and day cases to 93 per cent of the level before the pandemic. It has been above 90 per cent in three of the last four months. Out-patient activity recovered to 114 per cent of the month immediately before the pandemic began. It's been over 100 per cent in three of the last four months.
The service is under enormous pressure. There are more people working in it than ever before. There is more money invested in it than ever before. And despite all the additional things it has to deal with—COVID, flu, group A streptococcus, strikes—the service manages every single day to reach thousands and thousands of people who, if the health service wasn't there, would never have access to the services that they need. If he wants to describe it as a crisis and thinks that somehow a psychodrama solution is what the health service needs, it's not the view that I take of it.

Adam Price AC: That is beneath the First Minister, to be honest with you. These are not my words; they're the words of the NHS workforce that we've been speaking to and listening to on the picket lines. We have nurses, doctors and others, through burn-out, who are crying on wards, and patients and their relatives because of the experience that they're facing. I'm afraid the state of denial that we've just heard from the First Minister reflects your complete misunderstanding, your complete disconnection from what is happening on the ground.
I welcome the fact that you're willing to look at our ideas positively in the five-point plan. At the heart of them is getting a long-term workforce plan to address this crisis of recruitment, retention and morale, and the problem of burn-out in the health service. Can being more flexible be part of the solution? Well, you could look at not just our ideas, but the ideas in the Senedd committee presented today in terms of a four-day working week. Could that provide some degree of solution in terms of, as well as improving productivity, reducing overwork and exhaustion, but also providing the dual benefit of a happier, healthier workforce, less stressed and sleep deprived? You're committed, you say, as a Government to being innovative and to evidence-based policy; why not look at this idea as part of the potential solution to the crisis of recruitment and retention in our health service?

Mark Drakeford AC: First of all, many people in the health service do work less than a five-day week. It's part of the changing nature of the way in which people who occupy those very pressurised roles choose to make their own future. It's part of the reason why we have more people working in the Welsh health service, in every single aspect of it, than ever before.
We're always willing to look at ways in which the working conditions of people across our public services can be improved. It's part of the discussion that the health Minister has been having with our health service trade unions. A four-day working week is something we know that some businesses in Wales have already embarked upon because they believe that it delivers better productivity and a more contented workplace than would otherwise be the case. We will look carefully at the lessons of that. There is to be an experiment in Scotland. It's yet to begin, but I've discussed it with the Scottish First Minister and we will look to see whether there is anything we can learn from that. The notion that a rapid and wholesale move to four-day working in the health service would be likely to lead to better outcomes for patients is something that I think would need a good deal of examination.

Renewable Energy

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 3. Will the First Minister make a statement on investment in renewable energy in Wales? OQ59021

Mark Drakeford AC: Last week’s awarding of a seabed lease to the Mona project is a milestone moment. Providing that conditions are right, major private sector investment can be mobilised to create a renewable energy future for Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: King Charles said last week that he was eager to see a percentage of the Crown Estate's profit used for broader public good. Many of us would argue that all of the income of the Crown Estate should be used for the broader public good. It's a policy for many of us to devolve the Crown Estate, and I'd be very pleased to hear what work the Government is currently doing to move that agenda forward. But also, do you agree with me that income generated from the Crown Estate shouldn't be the basis of the sovereign grant that maintains the royal family?

Mark Drakeford AC: The Government's policy is to have the Crown Estate devolved here to us in Wales. We have had more than one conversation with the Crown Estate and we've presented the same idea to the UK Government as well. As I know Llyr Gruffydd will know, with the current UK Government, there will be no opportunity, I don't think, to move ahead with that idea. But in the opinion of the Government, that's the best way to do it. By doing things in that way, the money from the natural resources here in Wales will be in the hands of the people of Wales, and that's the best way to proceed.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Development plans, and, indeed, our national development plan, are the backbone when we're looking at future planning on land. We've asked, for many reasons, why there isn't the same detailed approach out at sea. This is a point we've spoken about for several years. I was proud to see a majority in this Welsh Parliament back our legislative proposal to create a national marine development plan for Wales. You've yet to progress with these proposals, and they're backed by RSPB Cymru, other non-governmental organisations and lots of conservationists. Would you agree with me that a spatial approach is key?
Turning to the 2023-24 budget, as Wales Environment Link have highlighted, it's really concerning to see the contrast between the budget lines of marine policy evidence and funding, which is around £1.9 million, and marine energy, set at £7 million. That's quite a gap. Will you explain the £5.1 million gap? I know we need renewables, First Minister, but you have to balance this, and we've been calling on the Minister to do this by having this plan. Would you not agree that more evidence is important now, if Welsh Government are continuing to plan to accelerate offshore renewable deployments, so that these don't come at the cost of our natural biodiversity and our conservation? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: We have a marine plan. The first Wales marine plan was published in November 2019 and the first three-year review of that plan was laid before the Senedd on 10 November. So, I'm not absolutely sure what the Member is asking for when that plan exists and it's been reported here to Senedd Members. On the specific issue of the budget, the Minister is in front of committee tomorrow and will no doubt be able to respond to that point. However, Llywydd, it is difficult for me to know quite how to respond to the contradictory messages that I receive from members of the Conservative Party. I receive letters from the Secretary of State for Wales urging me to get on with development and not to allow environmental considerations to hold up the necessary work of renewable energy, and I have the Member here from the same party urging me not to rush ahead with energy development so that we can protect the environment.
The truth of the matter is you have to balance both of those considerations, and it's a difficult balancing act. As I said last week in answering Sam Kurtz, I want Natural Resources Wales to be an enabling organisation. I want it to be able to give confidence to renewable energy developers, including developments of marine energy. I want those developers to have confidence that the system exists in Wales to get them the consents that they need. At the same time, NRW must discharge its responsibilities as an environmental regulator. In Wales we won't sacrifice the precious environment that is the sea in a short-term dash to see developments that aren't capable of being consented. But holding those two things in balance is a challenging business. And we discuss it; I know the Minister was discussing it with NRW only last week.

Alun Davies AC: I welcome the First Minister's statement in answer to Llyr Gruffydd supporting the devolution of the Crown Estate. I think that's a very important move in terms of providing renewable energy supplies for Wales, and I'm looking forward to the Minister for Climate Change's statement later this afternoon on those targets. But, First Minister, as well as ensuring that we have the ability to deliver the large-scale developments that are required to meet net-zero targets, is it also possible to balance that with a greater emphasis on local community-owned renewable generation? Because when I speak to my constituents, they have fears about some of the larger scale developments that could take place on the valley tops around Blaenau Gwent, but what they want is a commitment to net zero, and they want to play their part in delivering net zero. And that means local schemes, which we can feel an ownership of and which we feel we can be a part of, to ensure that every part of our community has access to renewable energy generation at a reasonable cost.

Mark Drakeford AC: I certainly agree about the importance of local community energy. In the statement that the Minister will make later this afternoon, I anticipate that she will have something to say about new and more ambitious targets in that part of what we do.
The Welsh Government has significantly increased our support for Community Energy Wales. It's chaired these days by our former colleague Leanne Wood, and I was grateful for some recent discussions with her about some potential community energy developments in the Cardiff West constituency. So, I think, as Alun Davies has said about his constituents, so in every part of Wales there are individuals and organisations that want to see, in addition to the absolutely necessary large-scale commitment to renewables, the ability to do things in that local sense. We're committed to a very significant proportion of renewable energy in Wales generated through that local route, and the support of communities across Wales for it is part of the strength that Wales brings to this agenda.

Drug Addiction Support

Tom Giffard AS: 4. How is the Welsh Government supporting people with drug addictions in South Wales West? OQ58991

Mark Drakeford AC: The Welsh Government continues to support people who experience problematic use of both drugs and alcohol. We are investing almost £64 million in our substance misuse agenda in this financial year, and that will increase to almost £67 million in 2023-24.

Tom Giffard AS: Thank you, First Minister. I'm sorry to say that Swansea suffers from the largest number of drug-related deaths in Wales, with nearly 200 people dying of drug misuse over the last five years. The situation has now been worsened by the flooding of fake benzodiazepines onto Swansea's streets. Last week it was also reported that one in 10 of those on a drug rehabilitation programme in the Swansea Bay health board area were waiting over 40 weeks for treatment. I know you'll be likely to blame COVID—and, yes, it's had an impact on services—however, the problems in Swansea date back to before the pandemic. Overall in Wales, drug-related deaths have jumped by 44 per cent over the last year. So, what urgent measures are you taking to ensure that people in Swansea are getting the treatment that they need, and do you recognise that the substance misuse delivery plan is failing to deliver for those who need it the most?

Mark Drakeford AC: I fundamentally disagree with the last point the Member made. He's right to say that drug-related deaths in the last year for which figures are available rose in Wales, as they did in every part of the United Kingdom, but they fell in Swansea. So, that's an important thing to recognise as well. I do accept that there are particular challenges in the Swansea Bay area, and we need a full commitment from all members of the area planning board in that area to bringing about improvement. The Swansea Bay truth commission, chaired by a former very senior public health consultant and a former police assistant chief constable, is itself bringing together local players and people with direct experience of these matters, to try to make sure that there is a pathway to improvement, and we look forward to their final report in September of this year.
Waiting times are too long in the Swansea Bay area, and they can be better. In Bridgend, which was until quite recently part of the Swansea Bay health board, waiting times are now 10 days for treatment. If you can do it in Bridgend, it can be done in Swansea as well, and it's important that lessons are learnt from good practice in places that have struggled to be in the same position.
We continue to work closely across the jagged edge of devolved and non-devolved services in this area, and we've been pleased to work closely, through the Police and Crime Commissioner Alun Michael, with the Home Office project ADDER—Addiction, Diversion, Disruption, Enforcement and Recovery—a project that seeks to bring together the forces of both policing and treatment to make a difference in the Swansea area. I know that my colleague Lynne Neagle visited that project in October of last year, and it is by bringing together the different services that can make a difference in this area that we will be able to make the progress that we want to see in Swansea Bay.

Sarah Murphy AS: Speaking of Bridgend, before being elected, I was a trustee to Brynawel drug and rehab centre, which is in my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies's constituency of Ogmore. They offer a wide range of holistic approaches to support people with their rehabilitation from addictions. I have seen what fantastic support is out there, and the barriers that people can overcome when they have the access to the right support.
Research from the Centre for Social Justice argues that today, actually, more of us are vulnerable to addiction than ever before, with over-prescription practices, drugs culture infiltrating social media, the growth of the dark web, aggressive gambling marketing, and conditions like anxiety being exploited by dealers in illicit medication. In their report, 'Road to Recovery: addiction in our society – the case for reform', they call for a whole-person approach to help individuals with recovery. As they put it, recovery starts with the individual, but it takes a compassionate and determined community to make that a reality.
So, First Minister, would you agree with me that, despite the continued challenge to tackle substance misuse, the partnership work that we have here in Wales through the area planning board structure and the £67 million of funding that is being protected and increased within our budget, along with our long-standing commitment to a harm-reduction approach, has underpinned Wales's strong response to tackling a very complex and multifaceted issue? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I begin by paying tribute to the work that goes on at Brynawel—a project that unites people across this Chamber in the work that's been invested in making it a success. The approach we've taken in Wales is a harm-reduction approach, one that recognises the pressures that exist and that propel people into these difficulties, and thinks of substance misuse as a public health issue, not one that is solely related to criminal justice. The partnership approach is absolutely fundamental to that, and so is using new opportunities as they come our way.
When I chaired the policing board for Wales last, we were joined by the then policing Minister at the UK Government, Kit Malthouse, and we discussed the way in which, in Wales, we have led the way in making available a new form of treatment, buvidal. Over 1,200 service users across Wales are now benefiting from that form of treatment, with 172 in the Swansea bay area. Kit Malthouse said at that meeting that the investment that Wales is making in that new and innovative treatment is leading the way across the whole of the United Kingdom. So, it's a combination, isn't it, of using our strengths, the partnerships we have on the ground, while at the same time being willing to invest in new opportunities that can do good in the lives of people who otherwise have experienced such significant harm.

Vascular Services

Siân Gwenllian AC: 5. Will the First Minister provide an update on vascular services for patients in Arfon? OQ58981

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Siân Gwenllian for the question, Llywydd. Over the coming weeks, a number of reports will assist the board in the necessary work of improving vascular service for patients in Arfon. That will include a recent re-inspection of the service by Health Inspectorate Wales and the report commissioned through the board’s own vascular quality panel.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Once again, I'm supporting a constituent from Arfon who has suffered terribly because of fundamental and very serious errors by the vascular unit at Glan Clwyd Hospital. I've consistently argued that the health board has destroyed a high-quality unit in Bangor for all the wrong reasons. This is just one of the poor decisions made with the approval of your Ministers over recent years, which has led to a decline in services for people in north-west Wales.
Underinvestment of capital in Ysbyty Gwynedd is another of those poor decisions that has emerged recently. A series of senseless decisions and mismanagement has contributed greatly to the health crisis in this part of Wales. The current vascular arrangements do not work for my constituents. You've listed a number of reports—more and more reports—but what are you actually going to do to stop these heartbreaking situations that continue to arise in Glan Clwyd Hospital?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, we've looked at the history of vascular services in north Wales more than once in the Senedd. I don't agree, the health board doesn't agree and the royal colleges don't agree with what the Member has been suggesting over the years. Llywydd, the health Minister has accepted that there continue to be concerns with vascular services in north Wales and the progress in vascular improvement. Now, the Welsh Government is closely monitoring the improvement of that programme, and the national clinical lead for vascular services, who's just been appointed, has already visited north Wales, and vascular consultants working in north Wales will participate in the first all-Wales vascular conference in February. So, by collaborating in that way, with the leadership of the Minister—that is the best way of ensuring that services in north Wales are best placed for the future.

The UK Government’s Legislative Programme

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 6. What assessment has the First Minister made of the impact of the UK Government’s legislative programme on Wales? OQ59005

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the UK Government continues to deploy its legislative programme in ways that disregard the Sewel convention and undermine the devolution settlement by stealth. Of current Bills, the arbitrary and ideologically driven Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill poses really significant risks to the Welsh Government and to this Senedd.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: First Minister, thanks for that answer. If the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill proceeds as it is now, and on the arbitrary timescale set by the UK Government, then by December next year, we will see thousands upon thousands of regulations covering essential environmental and employment protections and much more, many of which fall directly within devolved competence, being stripped away unilaterally and without any meaningful engagement with the Welsh Government, and which, from this summer onwards, could seriously risk overwhelming the capacity of Welsh Government and of this Senedd. And, indeed, because of the unseemly haste and the lack of detailed analysis by the UK, it could effectively bypass scrutiny and lead to a legislative logjam here in Wales.
So, what hope does the First Minister have that the UK Government may see sense in the face of opposition in the House of Lords, from a growing number of Conservative backbenchers in the Commons, as well as right across the opposition benches, and from the public and concerned organisations right across the UK? And if the Government do not see sense, would he work with this Senedd to find legislative ways within our competence to give our Government and our committees time to do the job properly for the people of Wales, even if the UK Government want to take England headlong over a cliff of their own making?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, those are very important points indeed that Huw Irranca-Davies has made this afternoon. The best hope that we have of the UK Government stepping back from the precipice of its own making is that it will listen, not simply to voices here in Wales or in Scotland, by those many voices in academic life, environmental groups, and particularly in the field of business. And Huw Irranca-Davies is right to say thatthere are clearly growing concerns on Conservative Party back benches in the House of Commons. I see that the former Secretary of State for Wales, Sir Robert Buckland, was leading attempts by Conservative Members to put this whole business in a better position than it is at the moment. Can we be optimistic about that? I think it's difficult to be optimistic when we have a Prime Minister who is captured by a small number of Brexit extremists in his own ranks. Nevertheless, there was a meeting earlier today between the Counsel General and Minister Felicity Buchan, from the department of levelling-up, and she did offer to convey our concerns in a constructive way to the UK Government, and we will continue to pursue those arguments with them.
One of the really big differences between the powers that are being offered to Wales in this Bill and powers that UK Ministers are retaining for themselves is the power to extend the sunset deadline. So, at the moment, UK Ministers, seeing the cliff edge coming, are able, themselves, to extend the deadline. Those powers are not available to this Senedd or to Welsh Ministers. They ought to be, because the same difficulties will face us as well. And when I said in my original answer, Llywydd, that there are significant risks not just to the Welsh Government but also to the Senedd, it is in the way in which the time that we have available to pass the necessary legislation could simply be overtaken by the sheer volume of amendments that will be needed if we're not to have a statute book that will simply be inoperable after the end of this calendar year. And, of course, I'm absolutely happy to give an assurance to the Chair of the legislative committee that we will work with the Senedd to mitigate those risks to the maximum extent that we can.

The Cost-of-living Crisis

Jayne Bryant AC: 7. How is the Welsh Government tackling the cost-of-living crisis in Newport West? OQ59015

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, people across Wales, including in Newport West, are experiencing the largest and sharpest fall in living standards since records began. This financial year, we will spend £1.6 billion on targeted cost-of-living support and universal programmes to tackle poverty and to leave money in people's pockets.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Prif Weinidog. The Federation of Small Businesses has suggested that almost one in four of the UK's small companies could be forced to close, downsize, or restructure, thanks to the UK Government slashing subsidies for companies' energy bills. They have estimated that many small companies will get as little as £50 per year in future Government support, whilst the Resolution Foundation's living standards outlook 2023 suggests that although wholesale energy prices are falling, energy bills will go up again in April, and help with those costs will fall. A typical household will pay £850 more in energy bills in 2023-24 than in the current financial year. In addition to all this, the UK Government refused to reinstate the £20 universal credit uplift, and are shelving important childcare reforms at a time when parents need them the most. Prif Weinidog, would you agree with the conclusion reached by the Resolution Foundation that this UK Parliament is set to be the worst Parliament on record for living standards for almost all parts of the income distribution?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I don't think there is any doubt; I think it's just a statement of fact that living standards will fall in this financial year and next financial year, to an extent that we've never seen before.
Llywydd, I think Jayne Bryant makes two very important points. It sometimes seems to me to a be a bit hidden in the public reporting and discussion of assistance with energy bills the extent to which the UK Government has stood away from the help that is currently available to businesses with those bills. The Federation of Small Businesses estimate that, in the next financial year, a small business will get on average £47 in assistance with their energy bills. The UK Government's own figures say this: that a pub that, at the moment, is receiving £3,100 per month to the end of March, will receive£190 a month from 1 April onwards. But a typical small retail store, which the Government has believed needed £500 a month in support at the moment and up to the end of March, will get £33 a month from then onwards. It's little wonder, then, that the British Chambers of Commerce is predicting that literally thousands of small businesses will go under as a result of that factor alone, and that will undoubtedly affect businesses in Newport West and other parts of Wales.
As to the broader points that the Member made, the Resolution Foundation's living standards outlook report of last week makes very, very grim reading. A typical household will pay £850 more in energy bills in the next financial year than in the current financial year, with much less help available to them. The average household with a mortgage that needs to renew their mortgage in 2023, will face an annual increase of £3,000 in mortgage costs. No wonder the Resolution Foundation says that living standards will be under pressure this year and next as never before.

And finally, question 8, Rhianon Passmore.

The Working Relationship between the Welsh Government and the UK Government

Rhianon Passmore AC: 8. Will the First Minister provide an update on the working relationship between the Welsh Government and the UK Government? OQ59022

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the instability of the UK Government and frequent UK ministerial changes have made it difficult to form dependable and productive links in the past year. We continue to press for implementation of the reformed inter-governmental relations machinery and the predictable, respectful system it implies.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch, First Minister. Downing Street last week sought to deny reports that Tory MPs in marginal seats have been told to stop using the phrase 'levelling up' ahead of the next election, because voters did not know what it meant, and instead use 'stepping up' or 'enhancing communities'. First Minister, no wonder no-one can understand Boris Johnson's now unloved levelling-up concept, as Rishi Sunak has been mired in defending how the richer south-east of England got or gets more money than its poorer north-east counterparts.
First Minister, what discussions did you and your Welsh Government have with Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and his UK Tory Government before these arbitrary announcements of some extra bits and pieces of funding for Wales? First Minister, isn't it obvious to all that this tired, clapped-out Tory UK Government does not work for Wales, does not work in the UK national interest, but instead works tirelessly for one thing and one thing only, the Conservative Party, irrespective of the damage, unfairness and inequities it exposes the people of Islwyn and Wales to?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, just to make sure that this is properly on the record, the amount of money available for the whole of Wales from the levelling-up fund is less than the money available to the south-east of England. Now, should we surprised at that? Well, I don't suppose we would be, because the current Prime Minister was on record during his campaign to become Prime Minister as having said that he himself—he himself—had seen to it that money was diverted away from deprived urban areas so that it could be spent in places like Tunbridge Wells. He was in Tunbridge Wells when he said it. I hope that his party is proud of that. I look forward to hearing them defend the fact that there's more money going to the south-east of England than to the whole of Wales.
Let's just put that in context a little for a moment as well—[Interruption.]

I can't hear the First Minister. I can't hear the First Minister, so if people can be silent to listen to the remaining few sentences of the First Minister's response.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch, Llywydd. To put it in context for a moment, Wales received 22 per cent of the European Union's UK allocation from the last round of structural funds—22 per cent. We received 10 per cent of the levelling-up fund. Remember, Llywydd—remember—we were not to be a single penny worse off as a result of leaving the European Union. What nonsense that turned out to be.
To answer the Member's point directly, Llywydd, the Welsh Government had no involvement in the development of the levelling-up fund, has had no role in its strategy or delivery, we were given no advance notice of the bids being announced last week. Every single thing about this fund is money taken away from Wales, decisions taken away from Wales. Everything about it is designed in Whitehall, and that distance really matters. The money isn't being used to do the things that Wales needs, and anybody who looks at it objectively could come to no other conclusion.

Thank you, First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement—Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There is one change to this week's Plenary business. The time allocated to Senedd Commission questions tomorrow has been reduced to 10 minutes. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: This week is obviously Holocaust Remembrance Week, and the Minister may be aware—the Trefnydd may be aware—that there's work that is ongoing in north Wales to try to chart the history of Jewish communities in the region. That work is being led by Nathan Abrams, who's a professor at Bangor University, and he's already undertaken a great deal of work in Anglesey, Gwynedd and other parts of north Wales. In order to progress and complete that work, around £50,000 is needed, which I know is a significant sum in terms of research, but it's not a significant sum in terms of the importance of this work. Can I ask for a statement from the appropriate Welsh Government Minister on our Jewish heritage here in Wales and what action is being taken in order to promote it, particularly in the north Wales region?
In addition to that, it shouldn't have escaped anybody looking at my social media feeds over the weekend that we marked Red Squirrel Appreciation Day this weekend. And as the red squirrel champion in this Senedd, I don't want to miss the opportunity to seek an update on the support that the Welsh Government is giving to the conservation work that is taking place for red squirrels. I took part in a webinar yesterday with the UK Squirrel Accord to talk about the good work that's being done, collectively, in Wales, to promote and boost the numbers of red squirrels in the country. But one issue of concern that was raised was the fact that the Prevention of Damage by Pests Act 1949 apparently only covers rodents, and gives responsibilities to councils and local authorities to take action to minimise rodents as pests in people's homes and businesses. But there's no provision for the pest damage that, of course, grey squirrels can also cause—stripping electrical wiring, and burrowing into people's properties and causing damage to the timber. I know I'm going on, but if I may just finish—

Sorry. It's handy that you're going on, because I was losing myself in laughter there at the idea of you in the squirrel webinar yesterday. [Laughter.]

Darren Millar AC: Me in the squirrel webinar, yes. It wasn't just attended by squirrels, I have to say. [Laughter.]
But, clearly, there is significant damage that is done to timber, that is done to trees, because they strip trees of bark as well, and we've got an ambitious tree-planting programme here in Wales. And therefore I would ask if we could have an update on red squirrel conservation work in Wales from you as Minister, and whether you could incorporate some reflections on whether it would be a good idea to broaden the Prevention of Damage by Pests Act in order to encompass the damage caused by grey squirrels in particular. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. In relation to your first question, I am aware of the work that you referred to that's going on in north Wales, and I will certainly speak to my colleague Jane Hutt, who would be the Minister with responsibility, to see if she and her officials are aware of that work. It just sounds excellent work, and I will make sure the Minister is aware of that.
In relation to your second question, which is obviously asking for a statement from myself, I have to say, since I've been in post, it's very apparent—and you just referred to an Act from 1949—that a lot of the legislation around this, and I'm sure the Minister for Climate Change would agree, is very, very dated. So, I'll certainly be very happy to look at that as a whole, and then if I think it's, obviously, worthy of a statement, I'd be happy to bring one forward.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd like a statement, please, about community right to buy. A beautiful local asset, bluebell wood, near Llanbradachwas destroyed a few months ago, and the council issued a restoration order. The site is up for auction, and the new owner will be obliged to restore the land. A group of local residents is trying to raise funds to buy the land for the community, but I'm sure that residents across Wales would welcome other chances and other ways of protecting beloved local sites. I know the Government is looking at establishing a new commission around community empowerment. Could a statement take this further, please, including explaining how local groups, like that one I mentioned in Llanbradach, could feed into a process, because so many buildings and even green fields in our valleys hold a collective memory, a sense of connecting us to our past. It would be wonderful to help ensure that spaces like this, which are so important, could be protected for the future. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think you raise a very important point, and, as you alluded to, the Minister for Climate Change is certainly leading on a significant piece of work in relation to that. I think, in the first case, it might be better if you write to the Minister for Climate Change on that specific point, and I'm sure, as the work progresses, the Minister will be happy to bring forward a statement.

Jenny Rathbone AC: In this very cold weather, I just wanted to highlight the situation of a constituent of mine whose boiler has broken down: a family of four with two disabled children, they absolutely don't have the money to replace this boiler, with a combined income of £19,000 and two disabled children. So, they've no savings to fall back on and Nest has told them that they can't help them, because he uses his home as his business address. So, if he'd been a mobile hairdresser, apparently he could have got help, but because he's a mobile IT engineer, who does a small part of his work remotely, helping his clients get their IT systems back up and running again, and only part of his work is done in people's offices and homes, they've told him he's not eligible. So, I wondered if we could have statement from the Minister for Climate Change regarding the decision-making processes that Nest is supposed to adhere to, because there seem to be some huge anomalies here, which don't keep up with the fact that people often work remotely, as we do occasionally. And also, when can we see light of day on the new Warm Homes programme, which might be the best and most elegant way of rectifying this anomalous situation for really desperate people?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Unless you have already done so, I would advise you to write to the Minister for Climate Change, because it could be that there's some flexibility within the criteria that would allow your constituent—. I think you raise a very important point, particularly post COVID pandemic, when many people have seen a change in their work style, and many more people are working from home. So, I would suggest you do that, in the first place, if you haven't done that already.

Gareth Davies AS: Can I ask for a statement from the Minister for Economy this afternoon on the upcoming closure of HSBC in Denbigh, which is due to close in August? Now, I understand it's part of a nationwide closure of 114 banks, I think, but I really believe that HSBC has been shortsighted in its strategy of closures, particularly in rural areas. Denbigh is a rural town in the heart of the Vale of Clwyd, and HSBC is one of the last banks in the town, as Barclays and Nat West vacated some years ago, and many people in the town and surrounding villages simply can't travel as far as Ruthin or Rhyl to do their banking, particularly if they have no access to a private vehicle or public transport. I set up an online petition in December, and I've circulated paper copies around local pubs and businesses, and I've so far received over 200 signatures, and I hope this increases over the next couple of weeks. So, could I have a statement from the Government this afternoon in response to the planned closure of banks in Denbighand what support can be available to help my constituents who struggle to travel around rural areas to carry out their business? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, banking is a reserved matter, so I don't think it would be appropriate for a statement.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: May I ask for an urgent statement from the Deputy Minister for transport on an announcement made last week by the Llew Jones bus company, which is going to bring to an end the T19 service from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Llandudno in a fortnight on 11 February? The T19 service was launched 18 months ago, to replace the X19. Many people in the Ffestiniog area use it for medical appointments, education, shopping and leisure, and it's crucial to them for their day-to-day lives. People's lives will be affected as a result of this announcement. Of course, there is a train service, but a train ticket to Llandudno is more than £9, whilst a bus ticket is £5, and the train has been inconsistent in terms of service. This announcement will be a blow to the Ffestiniog area, and it's not consistent with the ambition of Government in increasing the use of public transport. Can we therefore have an urgent statement from the Deputy Minister on what steps the Government will take in order to ensure the reintroduction of this bus service, be it a Fflecsi bus, or on a revised timetable, or a financial investment? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. It was very unfortunate that Llew Jones Coaches did serve notice that they intended to withdraw from operating the TrawsCymru T19 bus service, with effect from Saturday 11 February. As you referred to, there are other public transport options available to passengers in the Conwy valley, and Welsh Government is working very closely with our partners to ensure that those vital public transport links are maintained for our rural communities along that route. I am aware that the Deputy Minister for Climate Change is expecting a further update within the next, I think, week to 10 days, and continues to work with Transport for Wales, Bus Users Cymru and Conwy County Borough Council.

Vikki Howells AC: Trefnydd, this week is Cervical Cancer Prevention Week. Around 160 cases of cervical cancer are diagnosed annually. It's the most common type of cancer for women under 35. I've been working with Jo's Cervical Cancer Trust to increase take-up of the HPV vaccine and cervical screening, as we know that regular screening reduces risk by up to 70 per cent. Could we have an update from the health Minister on Welsh Government interventions to eliminate cervical cancer?
And, in addition, the leader and deputy leader of the Welsh Local Government Association have written to UK Government, calling on them to clarify which council services will qualify for the energy bill discount scheme. This is important so that our councils can get assurances that important community assets, such as leisure centres, will get support towards their energy costs. So, could I ask also for an oral statement from Welsh Government on its discussions with its UK counterpart to ensure this vital support for our councils is put in place?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think it's very good that you've raised Cervical Cancer Prevention Week here in the Chamber. It's very important that we do always continue to raise awareness and, as you know, Welsh Government has committed to improving cervical cancer outcomes through a combination of screening and HPV vaccination, and also access to treatment. I think it's fair to say the cervical screening programme has fully recovered from the impact of the pandemic now, and there's a significant number of eligible people participating in the programme. Take-up of the HPV adolescent programme was affected by the pandemic because of the school closures, and the vaccination teams have really made some significant efforts to recover and increase the uptake, and I think we as Members should do all we can to make sure people are aware of that vaccination programme.
With regard to your second point, I am aware of the letter from the WLGA to the UK Government on the energy bill discount scheme. We've expressed concerns at ministerial level, and our officials have, regarding future support for non-domestic energy consumers, in particular the need for that continued support when we have that cliff edge that's coming down the track at the end of March. It's our expectation that all council services will be covered by the energy bill discount scheme when it's introduced in April. And, as I mentioned at the outset, our officials continue to engage with the UK Government to stress the importance of comprehensive support for all, alongside the higher level of support for those most impacted by energy price changes.
Over the longer term, we believe the UK Government need to implement market reform to decouple the consumer cost of renewable energy from global gas prices, and we really do all want to work together to build a more localised, renewables-based energy system to replace our reliance on imported fossil fuels.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Business Minister, a whole term has now passed since the beginning of the Curriculum for Wales's implementation in schools, and Estyn inspection teams have, of course, been very busy. For the first time in many years now, the inspection process is the only method by which primary schools are held to account. Secondary and all-age schools have the additional pressure of the external examinations, of course, with results at age 16, but these soon, too, will be changing. Given the importance of these changes, can I ask the business Minister for an oral statement from the education Minister on how the inspection process has changed since the new curriculum entered our schools? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I will certainly raise it directly with the Minister for education. I would have thought he might think it's a bit early in the timescale of the changes to have an oral statement at the moment, but I will certainly raise it with him.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: It's good to see that already today colleagues have been raising the issue of the effect on businesses of the cliff edge at the end of March of the drop in support for energy prices. Both Vikki and Jayne Bryant have raised this. I think they're right in raising the fact of the impact of this upon things such as retail outlets, local pubs and clubs, and so on—that's absolutely right. But I would welcome a statement, Trefnydd, on this issue that also focuses on some of those small-to-medium-scale local foundational economy businesses that are employed in food manufacturing. Within the Bridgend area, we still have a number of these businesses, and I've spoken to them. They have, when I say, significant fears, they genuinely worry that they will close in April or May, and the reason is they've managed to get this far with support, on good order books, by the way, and, in fact, many of them could take on more. These are good, family-owned businesses, some of which go back three, four or five generations. But the energy costs now are tipping them over the edge, and they're looking to pay 70p or 80p per unit price for electricity, whereas, a year ago, they were paying 30p. They could pay a little bit more, but they cannot pay 70p or 80p. It means their cash flow will take them under. Their banks can't help them any more, and no development bank of Wales or anybody else can help them. The energy cliff edge will push them over.
Now, these are jobs where people walk to work. They may not be highly paid jobs, but they employ hundreds upon hundreds of people in every community in my valleys, and also in Bridgend and the RCT area as well. Perhaps I could, in asking for a statement, reflect the views of one of these businesses—a family-run business who's been there for many generations—who said, 'I would welcome the Minister not just calling on the UK Government to extend the support, but to bring the energy companies into a room and lock the door until they renegotiate, some of which has been done through brokers, the unit price energy costs.' There's a role for UK Government, but there's a role for the energy companies as we see wholesale costs falling, to sit in that room and give back to some of these companies, because it's no good to those energy companies if these companies go bust, and I'm seriously worried we could be looking at a tsunami of job losses and businesses closing.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You will have heard me say in my earlier answer to Vikki Howells that the UK Government is responsible for the energy bill relief scheme that does provide support to businesses to help them cope with the increase in the energy costs they're experiencing. I know the Welsh Government prepared a response to the UK Government's consultation that they had on the future of the EBRS, and that did include representations on behalf of not just the companies that you refer to, but also the energy-intensive sectors as well, and I know that the Minister is very aware of the concerns of stakeholders and continues to make representations to the UK Government. I'm sure having a summit is something that he will consider, now he's heard you asking him to do so.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I'm going to continue the theme of ambulances and waiting times. It was reported in our local paper, the County Times, that Welsh patients arriving at English hospitals, given that most of the patients on the border with England in Mid and West Wales actually use those hospitals, are potentially waiting longer because they are from Powys. Given that the area I represent in Mid and West Wales has that long border with England and many constituents of mine access emergency medical care, this, of course, is a concern, on top of the issues around ambulance waiting times anyway. For that reason, may I ask for a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding these claims and investigating them to see whether patients in border communities from Powys are experiencing worse outcomes with regard to emergency care? Thank you. Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. My understanding is English trusts do not treat Welsh residents differently, in the way that you've suggested, and I think the best way forward, the best course of action, probably would be to ask the Minister for Health and Social Services to get her officials to monitor that. Certainly, her officials would monitor any commissioning arrangements that they had with English hospitals. I'm not sure if ambulance waiting times is something that would be considered as part of those commissioning arrangements, but, certainly, I think it would be good for the Minister to ask her officials to look into this and write to you.

Tom Giffard AS: Trefnydd, the First Minister said in First Minister's questions, in answer to Andrew R.T. Davies, that he thought that 'urgent and transparent action' was needed by the WRU to ensure it responded properly to rectify the horrific allegations that were made of it in last night's BBC Wales special. But, as a major contributor to the finances of the WRU, we need to understand the action that the Welsh Government is taking here as well, which is why I'm calling for a statement from the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport to explain that. For example, we heard that she met with the WRU yesterday, but we need to understand the implications of that meeting and whether she raised linked issues as well—for example, the Welsh Rugby Union has resisted calls to publish its 2021 review of the women's game. Where is that and why has that been delayed? Surely she's aware of this review and, if that has not been forthcoming, why has it not been? And finally, we need to better understand to what extent the important work the WRU does with Welsh Government money is contingent on cultural change within the organisation. So, a statement would be very welcome, to clarify those matters. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, of course, the Deputy Minister is aware of the report you refer to and has called on the WRU to publish it, I don't think on one occasion, but on many occasions, and continues to do that. As you heard the First Minister say, the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport did meet with the WRU ahead of the airing of that programme last night. She continues to engage with them on immediate actions that must be taken to address the allegations set out in the investigation. I think the details that were provided in the testimonies were devastating, and we absolutely recognise the courage it takes for people to come forward after experiencing any form of harassment, bullying or abuse. The Deputy Minister will continue to meet with the WRU, and her officials too are engaged in this. It is a direct matter for the WRU, as it relates to their employment practices as an independent organisation, but, of course, there is a very clear public interest, and I think the leader of the opposition did refer to this, as the WRU being right at the heart, really, of our sporting and civic life. So, they will need to further explain how they're taking these matters very seriously. The Deputy Minister wants to know what action they will be taking to improve the current practices and the culture, and how they are going to provide a safe and welcoming environment for its staff and wider stakeholders.

Joyce Watson AC: In light of the recent reported cases of allegation of sexual harassment and/or domestic abuse by serving officers in the Metropolitan Police, Gwent Police and the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, the public need to be assured that all public services are safe places to work. Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for a statement from the Minister for Social Justice on what action she has taken or is going to take to ensure that people who work in the public sector and large organisations are free from sexual harassment in their workplace, and that those individuals who do come forward to report incidents can be assured that they will be heard and taken seriously at all levels of that organisation. Furthermore, what is being done to ensure that detailed vetting is carried out to root out perpetrators of domestic abuse and sexual harassment who will be then in charge of ensuring the safety of those individuals who fall victim?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Minister for Social Justice has always been very clear about her commitment to end violence against women and girls. It's a societal problem and it obviously requires a societal response. The Minister is absolutely adamant we've got to change attitudes shaped by long-standing structural misogyny and making lasting changes in order to tackle violent, abusive and controlling behaviours. You'll be very well aware, Joyce Watson, of our programme of government commitments to strengthening the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy, and that includes a special focus on violence against women in the workplace, as well as in the home and as well as in public places, in order to make Wales the safest place to be a woman.
The Minister delivers the strategy through a collaborative blueprint approach, which brings together all relevant authorities, as outlined in the Act, with non-devolved organisations. I know the Minister co-chairs the national partnership board with Dafydd Llywelyn, the lead police and crime commissioner for Wales. I'm sure the Minister will be very happy to bring forward a written statement to update us.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

And finally, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, I'd be very grateful for a statement on the status of the Wrexham Gateway project in light of the failure by the UK Government to support the scheme through the levelling-up bid process. This is a hugely important scheme for north Wales. It was conceived by Welsh Government; it's backed by Welsh Government, by the local authority, by the university and by the football club, but sadly not by UK Government as yet. The people of the region would very much appreciate an update on where the project stands and confirmation that the Welsh Government continues to support the Wrexham Gateway project, both in terms of administrative support and, of course, with financial support too.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. It was certainly very disappointing that, for the second time, the levelling-up bid by, as you mentioned, a group of partners in the Wrexham Gateway partnership was rejected by the UK Government. I, obviously, declare an interest as the constituency Member, and it certainly went down very badly with Wrexham's residents, because the gateway partnership, and the project, is such an important aspect of the ambitions for the new city.
I know that Welsh Government officials met with the Wrexham Gateway partnership last week, following the news that the bid had been rejected. They agreed unanimously that the commitment to deliver the Wrexham Gateway project remains resolute, and that, obviously, includes Welsh Government, and alternative funding options would be looked at in relation to the Kop part of the development. Those discussions are ongoing with Wrexham Association Football Club.I know a further meeting is to take place between the club and the partnership this week. Obviously, there are other very important elements of Wrexham Gateway, and they will continue to be considered as the project progresses.

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice: Holocaust Memorial Day 2023

Item 3 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Social Justice on Holocaust Memorial Day 2023. I call on the Minister, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. This Friday, we remember the millions of people who were persecuted and killed during the Holocaust and subsequent genocides. The theme for Holocaust Memorial Day 2023 is 'Ordinary People'. During the Holocaust and the genocides that have followed, it was ordinary people who found themselves persecuted and murdered because they belonged to a community of people. It was ordinary people who took action and helped those being targeted. It was ordinary people who did nothing and accepted hateful propaganda. The theme highlights a stark reality of genocide: in many cases, these atrocities were facilitated by ordinary people.
In their introduction to this year's theme, the trust underlines how ordinary people have enabled horrific actions:
'Ordinary people were policemen involved in rounding up victims, secretaries typing the records of genocide, dentists and doctors carrying out selections, ordinary people were neighbours wielding machetes in Rwanda, schoolteachers turned concentration-camp guards in Bosnia.'
The theme has a powerful message that is relevant to us all. We are all 'ordinary people' who have the power to make a difference with our actions, for good or ill. We, as individuals, have a choice to stand up to hate and prejudice. We can all challenge divisive narratives that aim to fragment our communities and demonise certain groups of people.
For 2023, the Welsh Government has funded the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust to employ a support worker in Wales to inspire involvement across the nation. The support worker has been engaging with communities, encouraging their participation, and helping to support local commemoration events through guidance and the provision of resources.
There are a number of events taking place across Wales, including a memorial service at Tŷ Pawb in Wrexham on 27 January, which I will be attending. The headline speaker is poet Adam Kammerling, who has written poetry based on his Jewish heritage and about his grandfather being a Holocaust survivor. The exhibition, 'Sophie Scholl and the White Rose', will be on show at both the Art Central gallery, Barry, and at Penarth pier pavilion. The exhibition tells the story of Sophie Scholl and her brother Hans, who became activists, risking their lives by distributing anti-Nazi leaflets throughout Germany. This week, both the Chapter Arts Centre in Cardiff and the Josef Herman Art Foundation in Swansea are hosting public screenings of films about the Holocaust. The Wales Hate Support Centre is holding an online webinar about the Holocaust on 26 January.

Jane Hutt AC: We are pleased to work alongside the trust once again, both to support this work at a grass-roots level as well as with the organisation of the national commemoration. The Wales national ceremony will be available online from 11 a.m. on Holocaust Memorial Day. It will be an opportunity to hear the harrowing testimonies of Holocaust survivor Joan Salter MBE, and Antoinette Mutabazi, a survivor of the genocide in Rwanda. We are grateful to both Joan and Antionette, and many other survivors of genocide, who devote hours of their time to share their stories and ensure the victims of these barbaric events are not forgotten.
At 4 p.m. on 27 January, people across the UK will take part in a national moment to remember those who were killed during the Holocaust and other genocides. I hope you are all able to join in with the 'light the darkness' moment by lighting a candle and placing it in a window. The trust asks that we also join in with the national conversation and share a photo of our candles on social media.
Buildings and landmarks across the UK will also light up in purple during this national moment of commemoration and solidarity. Many places across Wales are taking part, including Welsh Government offices, the National Waterfront Museum in Swansea, the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth, and Cyfarthfa Castle in Merthyr.
The trust has also worked with the Royal Drawing School to organise the (Extra)Ordinary Portraits competition, which was open to anyone in the UK under 25 years of age. Participants were asked to create a portrait of an individual affected by the Holocaust, genocide, or identity-based persecution. An expert judging panel chose 30 portraits to be displayed for Holocaust Memorial Day, with five of the winning entrants coming from Wales, which are now available to view on the Holocaust Memorial Day’s website.
The Welsh Government also continues to fund the Holocaust Educational Trust to deliver the Lessons from Auschwitz programme in Wales. Since 2008, the programme has provided students across Wales with the opportunity to visit Auschwitz-Birkenau and to hear from Holocaust survivors. After two years of virtual delivery, I am pleased that the students will once again take part in person this year. All participants become young ambassadors and are asked to continue to share their knowledge and encourage others to remember the Holocaust. One young ambassador is speaking at the Wales national ceremony on Friday.
We welcome Lord Mann’s recent report on tackling antisemitism in the UK. The Welsh Government contributed to the development of the review, and we look forward to continuing to work with him on this important issue. As Lord Mann highlighted in his report, tackling antisemitism goes beyond education about the Holocaust.
It is important that our education system equips our young people to understand and respect their own and each other’s histories, cultures and traditions. Our new curriculum reflects the true diversity of our population and that learners understand how diversity has shaped modern Wales, through mandatory teaching of black, Asian and minority ethnic histories, contributions and experiences. This is a key part of our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', which is driving us towards meaningful change.
The Holocaust is an extremely painful and distressing part of history, but it is a part of history that we and future generations cannot forget. It happened because of divisive narratives and abuse of power. We must never lower our guard to these same toxic narratives that remain present today.
This year is the seventy-fifth anniversary of the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights. A historic and important milestone for humankind, which was developed in response to the atrocities and inhumanity of the second world war. The universal declaration states that:
'All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.'
And that these rights are
'the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world'.
It is well worth remembering the origins of these sentiments at a time when there has been a growth in anti-human rights rhetoric across the world.
So, I will close this statement by thanking the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust and the Holocaust Educational Trust for their important work. I remain grateful to them for holding the lessons of history before us and continuing to speak out against hate and prejudice. Diolch yn fawr.

I have eight Members who wish to speak today on this statement, and I hope to call them all. So, your help would be appreciated in making sure your contributions are within your time allocations.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you for your statement, Minister. Friday marks the seventy-eighth anniversary of the day that Auschwitz, the largest Nazi death camp, was liberated by Soviet forces; 1.1 million people were murdered at that camp, nine out of every 10 of whom were Jewish. This is why 27 January is chosen to mark Holocaust Memorial Day. Why do we each year remember this Holocaust? It reminds us to learn the lessons of the past, to remember the stories of 6 million murdered Jews and those millions of Gypsy, Roma and Travellers, LGBT people, disabled people and black people who were also murdered in Nazi death camps. The world said, 'Never again', yet genocide has continued to take place since those terrible atrocities committed by Nazi Germany.
The Holocaust Memorial Day Trust also teaches us to remember those executed in the genocides of Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Darfur, but even after all these terrible events, we fail to learn. Tragically, in the twenty-first century genocide is still being perpetrated around the globe. We have Rohingya Muslims being slaughtered in Myanmar, Uighur Muslims in the Chinese province of Xinjiang being placed in concentration camps at the hands of the Chinese Communist Party, and perhaps saddest of all, we see the sons and grandsons of the heroic troops that liberated Auschwitz in 1945 carrying out war crimes and, quite possibly, genocide in Ukraine. The world cannot sit idly by and allow these atrocities to happen.
I would like to thank the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust as well as the Holocaust Educational Trust for their invaluable work in educating future generations about the Holocaust and, more recently, crimes against humanity. Sadly, not everyone heeds these lessons, and we have seen a tragic rise in antisemitism in recent years. It was deeply disturbing to read the independent report into the NUS, which found that the National Union of Students has failed to sufficiently challenge antisemitism and hostility towards the Jews in our own structures. Minister, what discussions have you and Cabinet member colleagues held with the NUS here in Wales about the steps they are taking to stamp out antisemitism in our university campuses?
As you point out in your statement, the theme of this year's Holocaust Memorial Day is 'Ordinary People'. Genocide is facilitated by ordinary people. Watching the trial of Adolf Eichmann, Holocaust survivor Hannah Arendt coined the phrase 'the banality of evil', meaning that evil acts are not necessarily perpetrated by evil people. Rather, they are the result of ordinary people obeying orders. Minister, how do we get this message across to people that everyone has a responsibility to stand up to hatred, that all of us have a duty to call out inequality?
Finally, Minister, your referenced the report of Lord Mann and the fact that tackling antisemitism goes beyond education about the Holocaust. You rightly point out that this year marks 75 years since the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted. Will you be marking the anniversary by introducing your Welsh human rights Bill? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Altaf Hussain, and thank you so much for your support for this statement, again reminding us of those horrific statistics of those slaughtered in the camps and the horror afflicted on 6 million Jews, but also on the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people. We stood shoulder to shoulder at the candlelit vigil—very moving today, cross party—hosted by Julie Morgan, as she's done year after year, hearing also from our Traveller community here in Wales, but also recognising the fact that disabled people were also slaughtered—Aktion T4, we won't forget that—and LGBTQ+ people, but also reminding us of the genocides across the world as well.
The theme is ordinary people, and I do want to just respond to your point about the NUS and universities. The Minister for Education and Welsh Language met the previous NUS Wales president last year. He had an introductory meeting with the new NUS Wales president in October. But he also met Lord Mann—you've mentioned, of course, the report on antisemitism—the UK Government's adviser on antisemitism. He met him last year to discuss the work and to raise awareness of antisemitism. He also met with representatives of the Union of Jewish Students in February, and he discussed the experience of Jewish students in higher education. And also recognising that we expect, from the NUS—. We continue regular engagement with this, but we expect, in terms of the investigation and subsequent report into antisemitism, an open and transparent engagement with them.
I want to finish by thanking you very much indeed for recognising that this is about human rights, and it is about learning the lessons. Commemorating the Holocaust is so important to ensure we don't forget, and never forget, how dangerous hate from divisive narratives can be and what can happen when people and communities are targeted and dehumanised because of who they are. I very much welcome—and I hope this is welcomed by your colleagues—a Welsh human rights Bill.

Sioned Williams MS: I certainly echo that call, Minister. Holocaust Memorial Day is dedicated to remembering those who were persecuted and killed because they were marginalised and othered by those in power. The theme of Holocaust Memorial Day, ordinary people, is one that has much to teach us today, as you have referenced, worldwide, and here in Wales. Because while Holocaust Memorial Day ensures we remember people, ordinary people, who are victims of atrocity, who were witnesses to such inhumanity, it also demands, while doing so, that we remember the fact that ordinary people inflicted those atrocities, were bystanders to bigotry, lies, hatred and obscene acts of violence. It forces us to confront what leads to such hatred, what facilitates such atrocities then and now. The author and Holocaust survivor Primo Levy said in his book The Reawakening:
'Monsters exist, but they are too few in number to be truly dangerous. More dangerous are the common men, the functionaries ready to believe and to act without asking questions.'
How are we ensuring that those questions are always asked in Wales? In her report on the war crimes trial of Adolf Eichmann, the philosopher Hannah Arendt famously called Eichmann, one of the functionaries of the Nazi machine, 'terrifyingly normal'. She concluded in her subsequent celebrated study, 'Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil', that his evil stemmed from
'an inability to think from the standpoint of somebody else'.
Thus, she suggested, an individual, and therefore those who serve a Government or operate on behalf of a state, can do evil without being inherently monstrously evil. That lack of empathy, that ability to see others as less, to detach from shared humanity, is what we must constantly guard against in society, in Government and in the media. Minister, do you therefore agree with me that compassion and empathy for those who are our brothers and sisters is crucial and that compassion and empathy must be expressed by Government through the language it uses and its actions? Given your comments on anti-human rights rhetoric, Minister, do you therefore also agree that we need to devolve further powers from Westminster to ensure our aim to be a nation of sanctuary is realised?
Freedom from Torture, an advocacy charity for torture survivors, recently posted footage online where Holocaust survivor Joan Salter confronted the UK Home Secretary Suella Braverman's dehumanising rhetoric regarding refugees and asylum seekers. Quoting words such as 'swarms' and 'invasions', Ms Salter asked the Home Secretary a very important question:
'I am reminded of the language used to dehumanise and justify the murder of my family and millions of others. Why do you find the need to use that kind of language?'
Yet the Home Secretary refused to apologise for the language she has used. As we mark Holocaust Memorial Day this week, will you, Minister, take this opportunity to join with me and my party in publicly denouncing the Home Secretary’s rhetoric used to describe people, ordinary people, fleeing from extraordinary circumstances and looking for sanctuary, and also the dog whistles such as the comments regarding small boats made by those in the Tory party both in Westminster and, sadly, by those who sit in this Chamber?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Can I just thank you again for your powerful statement as well as questions and your support for this statement today? As you say, the Holocaust didn't happen overnight; it began with a gradual erosion of human rights and divisive rhetoric against people who were different, who were perceived to be different to others. This is about the commitment again that we give as the Welsh Government—and it should be driven and expressed across this Chamber—that we want to drive out stigma and hatred and ensure people feel safe. I think what is happening over these coming weeks and months in terms of the work of the Holocaust Educational Trust is crucial in terms of ensuring that that underpins not only us as the Welsh Government but throughout all our public services, indeed every sector and facet of life. So, I'm really glad that we've got all those local authorities and organisations delivering a range of events and communication for Holocaust Memorial Day, and joining in the 'light the darkness' national moment.
Just very briefly, I want to say how important it is that we've funded the Holocaust Educational Trust since 2008 to run the Lessons from Auschwitz programme in Wales, as many of you will know, as you've met students who've actually engaged with this. Now this year they're able to actually personally engage in it. In 2023, the Lessons from Auschwitz project is running in February and March with 110 students from 55 Welsh schools signed up already. That will include six schools that are taking part in the programme for the first time—the first in-person Welsh project since the pandemic. And also, the online project is involving 131 students from 43 schools.
In terms of the expression of concern that you raise about statements by the Home Secretary back in December, I raised this this morning at an asylum and refugee taskforce that I chaired, which was attended by a Home Office official. I raised the concerns on our behalf from the Welsh Government, and it's good to have your support of that about the rhetoric and about the impact that that will have on people's lives. What does this mean for us as a nation of sanctuary? It actually goes right to the core against everything that we believe. I actually wrote to the Minister, Robert Jenrick, about this as well. So, I thank you for those points. I do think it is important that we look to the work that we're doing with the human rights advisory committee, looking towards us being able to—. We've established this new human rights advisory group. You also chair a very important cross-party human rights group so that we can move towards securing our legislation in terms of a human rights Bill. This is where we have huge concerns about the UK Government Bill of rights Bill, which seeks to repeal the Human Rights Act 1998. This is directly against what we wish to take forward in terms of our commitment in Wales, I believe, in the Welsh Government, and I thank you for your support on this issue.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I agree with the words of Lord Mann that tackling antisemitism goes beyond education about the Holocaust. However, it would be a mistake for us to think that there is not still an enormous job of work to be done to describe exactly what happened during the Holocaust and the things that were then subsequently suppressed. There was a deliberate policy after the second world war of drawing a veil over the Nazi terror in western Germany. My uncle was a colonel in the army of occupation, who told me, in some detail, about all the Nazis who were not put on trial but who were invited instead to resume their roles as administrators, as judges, and as police in the new post-war administration. Friends of mine who were of German-Jewish heritage, who've investigated the past, have huge amounts of stories to tell about those of them who managed to flee Germany. But we have to remember all the ones who failed to get here—all the Kindertransport that were denied entry into this country—rather than just the ones that we are proud to say we have accepted. We really have so much work to do to look at our own role. What did we know about the concentration camps and what could we have done to bomb the railroads that were taking people to their murderous end? So, Minister, I wondered what conversations you might have had with the education Minister on how we can ensure that the Holocaust is never forgotten and that we reflect on a new approach, a new eye on the things that we really do need to remember, because if we forget, we will simply repeat history.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, indeed, Jenny Rathbone, recognising that so much was suppressed, so much in our generation—in fact, in many family histories across this Chamber. We need to revisit that history.
Some Members may have had the opportunity—if you haven't, I do recommend it—to watch How the Holocaust Began, which was a film broadcast last night presented by James Bulgin. It was about the atrocities leading to the Holocaust. Again, it's unravelling the history that led to the Holocaust—the poisonous ideology that was being developed of ordinary people betraying their neighbours. All of this led up to the establishment of the camps as a result of mass shootings becoming unsustainable—Jewish people just being murdered. I've mentioned T4 in terms of disabled people. I think one of the horrific things that was said is that they referred to disabled people as 'life unworthy of life'.
I can assure you that we're taking Lord Mann’s report very seriously, but it is about what can we do in terms of that history. I would just say that this is really important, I think, with the new opportunities with the curriculum. Diversity is a cross-cutting theme in the Curriculum for Wales. We've also led the way becoming the first part of the UK to make it mandatory to teach black, Asian and minority ethnic histories, contributions and experiences as part of the story of Wales in the curriculum, with statutory guidance that makes it very clear the opportunities for our learners, but also helping our teaching profession as well with the diversity and anti-racism professional learning. And this, of course, will help in terms of widening our understanding of what history actually means—living history—for our learners in Wales.

Jane Dodds AS: It's so hard, isn't it, to talk about this, and, yet, it is so essential. It is so important that we remember these events, these horrific events, which should pervade our life, and we must never forget them.One thing I will never forget is standing in Kigali in Rwanda, on the site where 125,000 people were buried. It's hard to imagine that ordinary people in Rwanda, in a period of only 100 days, we found that Hutus were murdered by Tutsis—800,000 were murdered, and the world stood by and did absolutely nothing.
I've worked with refugees, and I've volunteered at Calais. I know how important language is in our discussions, and I associate myself with all of the remarks made earlier, particularly the remarks made by Sioned with regard to the language of our Conservative Ministers. It is absolutely unacceptable. We must look at our language. We mustn't call people 'migrants'; they are people—they are people desperately looking for a different way of life. And, in everything we do, we must remember what happened in the Holocaust. We must remember what's happened over the years in countries around the world, and we must always challenge what is going on today in this country, because it's about language, it's about challenging injustice, and challenging hatred. Thank you for your remarks, and thank you for the work that you're doing, Minister. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Jane. And it is so hard, but it is so essential, as you say. And I did want to also respond to the point that follows up what Sioned has said about the strength and the bravery of people who have spoken out. And I think the fact that Joan Salter was filmed confronting the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, in January, about the language used to describe refugees—. And Joan Salter said to the Home Secretary,
'When I hear you using words against refugees like "swarms" and "invasion", I'm reminded of the language used to dehumanise and justify the murder of my family and millions of others'.
And I think it is important that we put that on the record today.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm very grateful to have a chance to contribute to and respond to today's statement. As has already been stated, Holocaust Memorial Day is a day on which we remember all of those lives sadly lost in the Holocaust. With this year's theme being 'ordinary people', it is worth remembering those ordinary people and who they were. Approximately six million Jews, half a million Romany people, 270,000 disabled people and up to 15,000 LGBT people, and many others from many other groups, were victims—all ordinary people who perished at the hands of pure evil.
As a school pupil, I was able to join a trip with my peers to visit Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration and death camps—an experience that will live with me for the rest of my life. To see for ourselves the site where so many ordinary people had suffered and died due to their race, sexual orientation or religious backgrounds can never be replicated by watching a film or reading a book. That trip made such an impression on me that I think it's imperative that others visit and learn exactly what happened, because, as each year passes, those who survived the Holocaust are sadly lost to us as they die.
Therefore, I would like to ask you, Minister, if you are willing to work with me, and organisations such as the Holocaust Educational Trust, to set up a cross-party visit to Auschwitz-Birkenau before the end of the sixth Senedd, to give our fellow Welsh parliamentarians the same opportunity that I had 15 years ago. Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch. Can I thank the Member so much for his—? Well, he is a testimony today to the impact that the experience had on you as a young person growing up in Wales. And that has been very powerful as a contribution to the statement this afternoon.
I've already highlighted the fact that this is really moving forward in 2023, in terms of our visits, back in-person, in terms of the Lessons from Auschwitz Wales project. And it is important that this is—. Looking at the Lessons from Auschwitz project, where you would have benefited from this unique four-part course, with two seminars, one-day visit to Poland and next-steps project. It's a journey of learning and exploration about the history of the Holocaust and the world that we live in. But, also, the fact that you, I'm sure now, will always be a lifelong ambassador, a Holocaust Educational Trust ambassador. And I think it's important, as I said, that there will be a young person, a student from Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Rhydywaun, Penywaun, who's going to be taking part in the ceremony on the memorial day, on Friday. So, I certainly would be very happy to look at that proposal. I think this is really important, that we do join across the Senedd in terms of the support. And tomorrow, I look forward to the event, which, of course, is being hosted, cross-party, by Jane Dodds, Darren Millar, Jenny Rathbone, and Llyr Gruffydd as well. And we will make sure that, again, we express that support, I'm sure, at that event, and hear, indeed, from a survivor herself.

Delyth Jewell AC: On Holocaust Memorial Day, as so often, I'll be thinking about Zigi Shipper, an Auschwitz survivor, who died last week, on his ninety-third birthday. I had the honour of meeting Zigi in Westminster, and I heard him speak, not only about the horrors he faced during that period, when man's hatred of other human beings was allowed to conquer all sense of humanity, but also about the wonderful life he'd lived in the years since, because chance allowed him to survive. His story overwhelmed me, and when I was leaving the room, he grabbed my hand, and he said, 'I saw that you were crying. Why do you cry? I'm so happy'. Minister, I worry that, as more survivors pass away, the immediacy of their testimony could be lost, that that direct link that reminds us of the consequences of unchecked hatred could be loosened. What is the Welsh Government doing, please, to capture that testimony, working with the Holocaust Educational Trust and others, to teach not only schoolchildren but grown adults too about how easy it was for human beings to slip into that ugliness, and how easily it could happen again?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much for reminding us of that Holocaust survivor, who you met in the House of Commons, who died last year. And as I said, we're honoured to meet and to hear from a survivor tomorrow, and, indeed, in the national commemoration as well. This is why this event, this day and this statement are so important—it is not a one-off; this is about the way we live. I think it goes back to the point that was made by Sioned Williams—that this is a test of us as a compassionate society.
I do want to just very briefly mention the fact that we fund the Wales hate support centre, run by Victim Support Cymru. And it's very important that that centre is actually reaching out, to ensure that we tackle hate crime, and particularly, focus on an anti-hate-crime communications campaign, which, of course, is going to run right over this year, called Hate Hurts Wales. We've got to ensure that we get that message over. And I think it is important that we recognise the work of Lord Mann, in terms of tackling antisemitism in the UK. I think, now, what we have to do is make the connections between, yes, that important report, but then standing up for what we believe in Wales in terms of the people who we welcome to Wales—going back to Jane's point: it's the people we welcome to Wales. And that has to be reflected, not just in education, it's got to be reflected in the work that we're doing, not just in terms of tackling hate crime, not just in terms of education and supporting the trust, but also in our work to take forward, strengthening and advancing equality and human rights in Wales.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for her statement this afternoon, and I also welcome the cross-party unity that we see on this subject. I'm glad that she referenced the BBC programme last night, How the Holocaust Began, because I think it is an important aspect for us to understand—the way that ordinary people were both the victims and the perpetrators of the Holocaust. And I think that that programme did chart the development of the genocide in the second world war and before the second world war, and told again a story that we need to know and understand.I have borne witness to genocide twice in my life: in Rwanda and in the former Yugoslavia, and I think that creates a very real awareness that evil can always be there, that what happened in the 1940s wasn't a unique episode of evil, but it is something that can be just around the corner, even in today's world.
Minister, we are losing the generation that bore witness to the Holocaust and the second world war; we're losing the human contact, the human link with the death camps in the second world war; and we're losing the testimony of those people, their voices speaking to us directly. And what I would like to ask you this afternoon is: how can we, in Wales today, ensure that young people growing up, particularly, understand the profound nature of what happened over 70 years ago? I would like to see us exploring ways in which young people can visit Auschwitz to understand the enormity of what happened there, but also that the Holocaust is a part of a curriculum, where people understand not simply the technicality and the numbers, but the human impact of a genocide against the Jewish and other peoples of Europe, so that we can hope that the people who are being educated today in Wales, although they will have lost the human connection, will have that human understanding of genocide and of what the Holocaust did to all of us today.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Alun Davies. Thank you, again, for highlighting that theme of the ordinary people: the victims and the perpetrators, so clearly expressed in that broadcast last night. But, also, we've seen it in all the genocides; we saw it, as was mentioned, in terms of Rwanda, and the experience that Jane Dodds had. Thank you for sharing your experience of the impact of genocide yourself, personally. I think this is where—I won't repeat again the work that we're doing with the Holocaust Educational Trust. Actually, this is about priorities, isn't it? It is about, since 2008, funding that Holocaust Educational Trust, and I remember, as education Minister at the time, recognising how important it was that, even in a very pressurised budget, this must be a priority. Because, actually, as you say, Alun, this is about what we teach our children, what they learn and what are the opportunities we've got with the new curriculum. And I will share with the Minister for Education and Welsh Language the fact that I think this is really important learning, and the points you make for the diversity and anti-racism professional learning project. It is being driven forward by Cardiff Metropolitan University and the BAMEed Wales network. It needs to ensure that we can embrace this wider understanding of the history, and young people will be benefiting this week, I know, from hearing from those last survivors.

And, finally, Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, Minister, for your statement. The sheer extent of the evil of the Holocaust remains unfathomable to comprehension. I have also had the honour and privilege of speaking to a number of Holocaust survivors now: children, people, human beings, and it was and is evil in its purest. A number of Members have spoken to the horrors of the Rwanda genocide, but I also wish to disassociate myself with the comments of the Home Secretary regarding 'swarms'.
It is powerful that the theme for Holocaust Memorial Day is ordinary people. It is too convenient and too comfortable for us to fool ourselves that the Holocaust horror was perpetrated by an extreme and abnormal group of political fanatics, and, as BBC2's compelling documentary by James Bulgin demonstrated, the true horror for humanity was the willingness of ordinary men and women to be complicit in this evil: a process of the dehumanisation of people, the acceptance of hate, the use of language by politicians and the acceptance of propaganda. One of the most shocking scenes presented in the documentary was a German soldier's home movie, which showed men being thrown into a trench in Lithuania before being shot, but all as a large crowd of onlookers gathered, desperate to watch. Observing this, Bulgin stated, 'It's almost as if shooting Jews has become a spectator sport'—so truly horrifying to watch, eight decades later. And these horrific scenes were also replicated in The U.S. and the Holocaust, which presented us with pits of shot, naked women and infants, and the helpers filmed and laughed as the children were just executed. So, Minister, what can the Welsh Government and civil society do to ensure that future generations never forget such horror and evil? What lessons does it teach us about the power of individuals to effect good or ill on our fellow brothers and sisters?

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Rhianon Passmore for her contribution. It is a contribution—. Everyone who's spoken has been so moved by the fact that we're making this statement, and just recalling all the horror of the Holocaust. We must never forget that. It is about those ordinary people, and we must watch those programmes—we must learn from them. And also we must be very clear what we want to do in Wales. I won't repeat again what I've said about the opportunities through education, through our community cohesion, our anti-hate programmes as well. But also I have to say that we have raised our concerns with the UK Government, particularly not just about language, but the Nationality and Borders Act 2022—the fact is that it's diametrically opposed to our nation of sanctuary and the overall Welsh Government aim to have a more equal Wales—and the differentiation of refugees by their method of arrival. We must also continue, and we will do as a Government, and many of us around this Chamber raise these concerns with the UK Government, to be very clear what we believe and what we mean by a nation of sanctuary, and, hopefully, bring us together on understanding the history. So, I am really pleased to say thank you, Altaf Hussain, for starting this afternoon with that powerful contribution, because I think that really demonstrated that there is a lot that unites us on these issues.

Thank you, Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Renewable Energy Targets

Item 4 is next, the statement by the Minister for Climate Change on renewable energy targets. I call on the Minister, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today, I am publishing our consultation on revising Welsh Government's energy targets. Alongside this, I am also delighted to announce some important investment we are making to stimulate the renewables supply chain, driving economic growth alongside emissions reduction and energy security.
Our current targets signalled Wales's high ambitions for renewable energy and this Government's priority to move away from fossil fuels. We are making progress towards those targets, and we need a strong final push on the projects in development if we are going to meet our 2030 target for renewables to supply 70 per cent of our annual consumption.
But the climate crisis and recent energy price surge has brought into sharp focus the need for a further step change in our ambitions. A local supply of secure, affordable renewable energy, within the context of a strong Great Britain network, is the foundation to a prosperous, zero-carbon society.
I can, therefore, announce that we propose a headline target for Wales to generate the equivalent of 100 per cent of our annual electricity consumption from renewable electricity by 2035. Furthermore, we propose that we continue to keep pace with consumption, which is likely to at least double by 2050.
The evidence that is published alongside our proposals indicates the pipeline of projects in development and an illustrative pathway to meeting this target. It is clear that we will need a range of technologies and scales of development to achieve our ambitions. And we will need to be flexible on the right solutions for our communities, and ensure renewable energy can sit alongside Wales's outstanding environmental assets.
What is clear, though, is the role offshore wind is expected to play to reach our goal. Last week, the Crown Estate announced they had issued seabed leases to 8 GW of offshore wind projects. This includes the 1.5 GW Mona project off the north Wales coast. This is a major milestone towards the goal of delivering these projects by the end of this decade.
Fixed offshore wind is already supporting the local economy in north Wales, sustaining 240 good-quality jobs at the port of Mostyn. We are determined to build on this with the upcoming projects, working with the developers to identify local suppliers and build a skilled workforce. We must also learn the lessons of some missed opportunities to capture a greater share of the supply chain for fixed offshore wind, particularly in high-value manufacturing, integration and deployment. I'm therefore delighted to announce that we are granting up to £1 million of support for Port Talbot. This grant will match fund the preparatory work from Associated British Ports to enable future floating offshore wind projects to deploy from Wales. This investment signals to both the industry and the UK Government Welsh Government’s commitment to the floating wind sector. It also provides important funding for the infrastructure that we will need to deliver floating wind to meet our ambitions. Of course, this is not the end of our support, and we will continue to work closely with Port Talbot, Milford Haven Port Authority and colleagues in the Celtic sea alliance to maximise the benefits from floating wind to Wales.
Alongside the production of clean electricity, and the supply chain and employment opportunities it can create, it is also important that communities benefit directly and feel connected to the energy they use in our renewable energy future. The Welsh Government has long been an advocate of local and community ownership across a broad range of renewable technologies and scales of development. To achieve this, we have significantly scaled up the support we offer to communities. We have boosted our Welsh Government energy service offer and provided Community Energy Wales with significantly increased support to enable them to scale up their activities. A local energy grant scheme for community-led projects helps fill the gap left by the UK Government’s decision to end the feed-in tariff scheme. And our guidance on local and shared ownership helps communities to negotiate shared ownership of larger scale projects. And of course, establishing our new public sector renewable energy developer is an important aspect, which will directly retain greater value locally.
Renewing our target demonstrates our continued ambition for that local ownership.We are proposing a target for at least 1.5 GW of renewable energy capacity to be locally owned by 2035, scaling up our current target for 1 GWby 2030.Additionally, recognising the importance of heat decarbonisation, we propose an additional 5.5 GW of renewable energy capacity to be produced by heat pumps by 2035, contingent on scaled-up support from the UK Government and reductions in the cost of deploying this technology. In proposing this target, we welcome any supporting evidence that consultees can provide to inform it.Underpinning all of our proposals and targets are the infrastructure, supply chain and flexibility that will ensure successful delivery of our pipeline of renewable development projects and our energy security.
I've already talked about our support for the development of port infrastructure. Through our manufacturing plan, we are undertaking a supply chain mapping exercise of the marine energy sector. We are particularly looking at the capacity, capability and resilience of existing supply chains and identifying where we can take advantage of opportunities like fixed and floating offshore wind. We are working with network operators and Ofgem to understand and champion the needs of Wales for energy networks capable of supporting a net zero society. And we are encouraging the deployment of storage solutions to support a more resilient energy system. We already have some exemplar skills partnerships, notably the training provided at Coleg Llandrillo Menai to develop specialists in offshore wind. But we want to build on that, and our net zero action plan will set out the steps we will take to develop a world-class workforce for our local projects and great opportunities for school leavers, graduates and those seeking a new career path.
I have often said that Wales must feel the benefit of our renewables revolution and that we cannot make the same mistakes of the past and allow the benefit and profit from our resources to flow out of the country. This statement of intent was made clear in our deep-dive into renewable energy, which provided a vision for Wales to generate renewable energy to at least fully meet our energy needs and to maximise local ownership, retaining economic and social benefits in Wales. Our net zero ambitions will have a large impact on the Welsh economy and our communities as the shift in demand for goods, services and skills evolves. We want to ensure a just transition that provides economic opportunities across Wales, delivering benefit for businesses, communities and citizens.
The opportunities for floating offshore wind in the Celtic sea alone offer opportunities for many thousands of good-quality jobs and tens of billions of pounds of local economic benefit.Working in partnership with private, public and community sector developers, infrastructure operators, skills providers and businesses, we can build a world-class renewables industry here in Wales. Setting these targets is a demonstration of our ambition, and I invite you all to work with us to make this vision a reality. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'd like to thank the Minister for her statement. We all agree that a local supply of secure, affordable renewable energy within the context of a strong GB network is the foundation to a prosperous zero-carbon society. We need to be ambitious to achieve that community that we want to see Wales being, so I welcome your decision, Minister, to set a target for Wales to generate the equivalent of 100 per cent of our annual electricity consumption from renewable electricity by 2035. By 2050, electricity consumption is anticipated to increase by between 200 per cent and 300 per cent. This is likely to be mainly due to increased consumption in the heat and transport sectors. So, a question, Minister: alongside pursuing the roll-out of new renewable technologies, what steps will you be taking to try and encourage our community, where they can, to use less electricity?
Now, you have proposed a target for at least 1.5 GW of renewable energy capacity to be locally owned by 2035—[Interruption.] Sorry about my voice. Of the almost 73,000 locally owned renewable electricity and heat projects in Wales, nearly 90 per cent are domestic. The majority of these domestic projects are solar PV and heat pumps, which can be an expensive upfront cost for home owners, and, in our inquiry for retrofitting homes, this turned out to be quite a barrier. Now although 2020 saw 20 out of 22 local authorities increase their generation, just five saw an increase of more than 5 per cent. So, while, clearly, there is some progress being made, it is simply not rapid enough to meet your Government's near-term targets. So, what incentives, Minister, are your Government providing to empower domestic home owners and local authorities to speed up the rate of renewable energy generation?
For example, we know that business rates are a barrier to private hydro schemes. The cost of providing business rates relief to privately owned hydro projects during the 2021 financial year, when we saw so many come on line with this scheme, the last year they were eligible within the scheme, was £380,000. So, to help the drive towards producing more renewable energy and make hydro schemes on farms available, will you consider reintroducing the business rates support for landowners going forward to 2023-24?
In order for these ambitions to be worth something, there has to be a tangible framework for delivery. This includes the development of green jobs, investing in skills and training to deliver well-paid opportunities to the workforce who will be needed to make these renewable projects a success. Therefore, it was disappointing that the publication of the Net Zero Wales skills plan in the autumn of 2022 has been delayed. This means that Wales is the only Government across the whole of UK not to have published anything on net zero skills. So, will you commit, Minister, to the publication of a coherent plan for education and skills training so that these highly paid green jobs can actually become a reality?
Finally, I recently held a meeting with the Crown Estate. They are fully focused on delivery. They do have a wonderful track record of successfully leasing seabed, to the point that the UK is the second most successful market in the world. As they have made clear to me, there is an opportunity for Wales themselves to be global leaders if we move at pace and we encourage businesses to invest. So, Minister, will you please confirm that you are fully focused on delivery and moving at pace, and, as such, will you rule out pursuing Plaid Cymru's what can only be determined obsession with devolving the Crown Estate? If you don't agree with me, could you tell me what you believe the benefits would be by the devolution of the Crown Estate? But we as a group remain firmly opposed to that. Thank you. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Janet. I hope your throat gets better soon; I have every sympathy. As you know, I've had a very similar problem myself, so many sympathies there.
Just in terms of the Crown Estate, obviously, we are in favour of the devolution of the Crown Estate, and the benefits of that are just really obvious. First off, the revenue itself is worth having, just straight up. So, even if we didn't want to do anything else, it's clear that the revenue would be worth having. But, actually, what's much, much better in terms of the devolution that we would like to see is what we would then be able to do with ensuring that local supply chain and local employmentwere embedded into the auction round. Now, I'm very sorry to say that the last auction round, although we are delighted to see it be granted and go ahead, didn't have the kinds of safeguards we would have liked to have seen for local supply and ownership. It was a pass/fail only, and it's not part of the contract conditions.
I'm really sorry about that, because what we've got there is a race to the highest bidder, and then when the contracts for difference round comes out from the Government, that will be a race to the lowest price. And the people who get squeezed in the middle of those two conflicting competitions, run by the same Government, are the suppliers, while the main energy companies who have got the benefit of the auction for leases squeeze their supply chain in order to get the cost for the contracts for difference down as far as possible. And as I said only very recently in the Senedd in another statement, the real problem there is to make sure that the big multinational companies that have won, because of the way that the auction was run, don't simply just revert to their own supply chains at home as the quickest and fastest way of getting that price down, and that's a real problem for us.
If the Crown Estate was devolved, we would have been able to directly influence that, and I'm very sorry that we weren't able to. That supply is actually worth more than the price or the revenue implication, and if you look what's happened in Scotland, that's exactly what they've been able to do. So, I regret that the Crown Estate didn't see fit to do that, and we will continue to work with them for future rounds to make sure that smaller companies, consortiums of smaller companies, and community and locally owned renewables, can be directly associated with the auction, and not part way down the supply chain. So, I think that's a really direct example to you of why it would matter to us. I know your party doesn't agree with it, but I really fail to understand why, to be honest, because the benefits are really, really obvious.
In terms of energy efficiency, we do have energy efficiency in our planning. It's part of our carbon budget, and it's part of the climate committee recommendations to us. We expect everyone in Wales to play their part. It's not part of this particular statement, but I recommend to you the carbon budget documents themselves, which set out what we expect in terms of energy efficiency. Of course we want to only use the energy that is necessary; of course we want the most efficient grid, and that's part of the same conversation that I've rehearsed, Dirprwy Lywydd, on the floor of this Chamber many times. We need the grid to be as efficient and effective as possible, we need people to be as efficient and effective as possible in their use of energy, both at business and industrial level, and at local level, but, we know, and you set it out yourself, that because of the direction of travel for heat, for electric vehicles, for a whole range of other things, we know that the energy consumption will grow and, as I said in my statement, we're confident that our plan to have 100 per cent renewables will match that ambition, because of the real opportunity that we have here in Wales. It's so exciting to see it.
Everything you said about local ownership I agree with, other than the business rates. There is a real issue there, Dirprwy Lywydd, which I won't go into now, because it'll take far too long. But there is a real issue there about the right level of local taxation for the right level of profit, which, no doubt, we'll have a chance to debate another time.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Minister, for the statement. I was pleased to hear what you said about the Crown Estate. If we're going to have an obsession, I would say that having an obsession about having a better and more prosperous future for Wales is a good place to start, to be honest. So, I would associate myself with a number of things that you said about that, because we do have in Wales so much potential in terms of renewable resources, but there are also so many long-standing barriers that need to be recognised before Wales can realise that potential, and we've heard already about one of them.
Over a decade ago, the Welsh Government pledged that you'd take action, but we're still waiting to see the fruits of some of the promises made. There is much to praise, but there is also some frustration about the delays as well. The Welsh Government has a target to see Wales meeting 70 per cent of its electricity demand from renewable sources by 2030. But according to the Welsh Government's annual 'Energy Generation in Wales' report last year, the amount of electricity that we use has increased more rapidly than the amount of renewable electricity that's produced in Wales. The percentage of electricity that's used in Wales and that is created through renewable sources has fallen from 56 per cent in 2020 to 55 per cent in 2021. And when we look at the following year, 2022, considering that we faced the after-effects of the pandemic, as well as the cost-of-living crisis and the effects of the international crisis in Ukraine, what impact do you thinkthat these major changes will have on our use of electricity? What impact will that have on our ability to achieve our targets?
We, as a party, have criticised the Government in the past for the slow progress that has been made in this area. When do you think this trend will change or be reversed? I would like it, Minister, if you could set out the milestones that you anticipate that we would be able to pass on the journey towards meeting those targets, please.
Perhaps the biggest barrier of all is our energy grid. You've already mentioned this: the network of pylons, power lines and connections that serve the British energy system. Last week, the First Minister suggested that he would like to see the national grid come under public control. He talked about the huge sums of money that go to shareholders and the backlog of almost 700 renewable energy projects that are still waiting for the grid to find capacity for them. Does the Welsh Government intend to make the case for public control of the national grid? Have you or your officials held discussions with the Westminster Government about nationalising the grid? What impact, finally, do you think that that would have on our ability to achieve our renewable energy targets? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Delyth. I think there's much to agree on there, and then I can do a bit of an explanation of where we are. So, just in terms of the grid itself, the national grid is one of the worst-named bits of it, really, because it's nothing of the sort; it's a series of different organisations that deploy different bits of the grid. It has been very reactive in the past. It has only responded to customer demands for a grid connection in a particular place before it's deployed. The absence of planning has been—well, we've ended up where we are because of the absence of planning and the absence of future-proofing, because I think it has been evident for a long time that the grid was necessary, even for things like broadband and electric-vehicle charging, never mind for any industrial strategy, and it simply hasn't been looked at.
We've been calling for it, as a party, since well before devolution and ever since devolution—that it should be either a national service, which we still believe, or, at the very least, that it should be planned and that the national grid should take account of an upfront investment strategy, even if it was going to cost-recover afterwards. We have finally prevailed in having a holistic network design now being put in place for Wales, and that's a huge step forward in terms of what we can plan for, and that's a process that is very much ongoing; my officials are extremely involved in much of the granular detail. But, you know, it would be far better if it wasn't being done for profit for shareholders, and I think that's just a political philosophy that it's unlikely that the opposite benches will share, but we certainly do share it. At the very least, I'd like to see it as a not-for-profit company.
But, really, the big thing here is the planning. So, we are pleased that, finally, they have seen some sense and are looking at holistic network design. That's been partly driven by the big renewables developers, who are clearly screaming the place down about the fact that—the First Minister said it himself—they'll get the energy to the beach and then be looking for a plug. Where is the plug? That's a really big issue for us; we have to get ahead of that and those plans are proceeding at pace. There's a lot of detail on that, Dirprwy Lywydd, that I've been into a number of times in the Chamber, and I won't repeat it.
In terms of the targets that we have set, there are some issues around the percentage of generation. We have a ridiculous amount of the UK gas energy generation here in Wales through previous historic accident, which I would very much like to see got rid of, and that, obviously, affects the percentage, but we're making good progress towards it. The latest data we have shows that in 2021, renewables generated the equivalent of 55 per cent of our electricity use, against a target of 70 per cent by 2030. So, the reason I'm doing this today is because we think that target will be met and we're trying to increase our ambition. I think that's the right thing to do, so it's absolutely the case that we think that the 70 per cent will be met and now we can go further. We've also already achieved around 90 per cent of our target of 1 GW of renewable energy capacity to be locally owned by 2030. That's an estimated 0.9 GW of generation by 2021, so that also is very good. But what's holding us back is the grid. That's the point: we would have a lot more of these projects coming forward. A lot more just very domestic, farm businesses or whatever would want to connect renewables in if the grid was fit for purpose, and that is a real limiter for us, and so we need to work on that.
We will be developing as part of our co-operation agreement a company that I’m sure you’re all aware of, Ynni Cymru. I hope very soon that we’ll be able to make some announcements about that company’s ability to intervene in assisting people to get community generation to scale up. There’s a lot of ambition across the country for that, and I’m sure we can work with people. We will, though, have to look at closed grids, because we can’t get the grid connections. But we’ve got to make sure that those closed grids are capable, so that when we do get the grid we need, we can connect in. So, we will be looking outside the box for that, to make sure that people can.
And the last piece that you asked me about was the decarbonisation piece. Obviously, I’ve said a number of times what we’re doing about the right technology for the right house. We will, once we’ve got that ready to go, be starting to look at the deployment of grant assistance and so on, for the poorest and worst-fabric households first, to make sure we can run it out. We are now working with local authorities, and it might be part of Ynni Cymru—it’s under discussion. We will be working to see if we can do community decarbonisation projects—so, all the houses in a particular community, because they’re very energy inefficient, come together to do pieces of work, which makes it more affordable for all of them. That means that you get whole communities coming up at the same time. So, there are a number of plans in the pipeline there.

Alun Davies AC: I very much welcome the statement we’ve heard from the Minister this afternoon, and I very much welcome the vision that you set out, Minister. I’m also very grateful to you for what you’ve just said in answer to the previous question, because I think a number of us were curious, if you like, about what Ynni Cymru would actually do.
I think there are other barriers beyond those that you’ve described in terms of community distributed energy generation. I think the other barriers are finance being available to local groups to enable them to invest in creating the sort of generation capacity that we need for a small community. There’s also the barrier of the technology that is best deployed in different places, and the barriers, of course, of creating the corporate entity that would then manage that project. So, there are a number of different barriers there, and you’ve already described planning, of course. When I was sitting in your seat as a Minister responsible for this, I found that most of my budget was being used fighting other parts of the public sector, and it was one of the most frustrating jobs that I’ve done. So, I think we need to unpick that, and to ensure that community generation is something that we can focus on.
The final point I’ll make, without testing the patience of the Deputy Presiding Officer too far, is the alternative to that, because in Blaenau Gwent, one of the smallest constituencies in the country, we have an application for Manmoel wind, Mynydd Carn-y-Cefn in Abertillery, Mynydd Llanhilleth, Abertillery, and two in the Rassau. That is too much for a small community, and the danger is that if you surround people with 185m turbines, what you do is not generate more energy, but lose the goodwill of the population, and that goodwill of the population is what’s going to help us achieve the targets that you’ve set out for us this afternoon.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Alun. I absolutely agree with the last point. The big issue there is to make sure that the community has the renewable energy it wants and needs, but also there’s a huge piece there about not just community benefits, but proper community ownership. So, we are very keen indeed to facilitate any company that’s building an onshore windfarm—I hope we can do this with floating wind as well, but certainly onshore—to actually build turbines directly for community ownership. So, we can facilitate, via the Development Bank for Wales, local people having an actual share in that. That will mean they get a direct benefit in their energy bills, which is not permissible under the community benefits scheme, and also means that we can further a decarbonisation agenda, so we can actually get people’s bills right down. I think that has a fundamental effect on the amount of renewables that people want to see around them, if I’m honest.
The other big piece for me is we often have—I don’t know that your community’s in this particular place—communities that can see one or two or more windfarms out their windows who are on off-grid oil. We absolutely need to find a way to get those communities to be able to connect directly into the renewable electricity: (a) to decarbonise, (b) to get that community buy-in you talked about, and (c) how frustrating is that—that you’ve got that wealth of opportunity on your doorstep and you can’t get to it? Many of the communities that I serve and that Rebecca Evans serves are in exactly that position, and I’d imagine a number of colleagues around the Chamber are in that position, so we’re really keen to make sure that we spread out the largesse, if you like, and this community ownership piece is a really big part of that. So, we're very keen indeed to make sure that, as the state-owned developer rolls out, these exemplar sites—where we build turbines specifically for the community to own and we put up the price first, and we allow the community to buy into it over a very, very long period of time so that it's accessible to all income levels—really make a difference as those profits start to come into communities.
And then on the other two pieces, I completely agree with you around the access to funding, access to technology advice and access to corporate advice. I don't want to pre-announce the Ynni Cymru co-operation agreement talks that we're having, but they're progressing very nicely and I hope to be able to make an announcement soon that will cover off a number of those heads.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I'd like to raise two points and ask two questions, if I may. In order to achieve our goals and reach our targets, clearly, we need large-scale projects, but we can all play a part as well, and smaller-scale projects cumulatively will play a significant part. In England, small roof-mounted wind turbines are allowed under permitted development. However, permitted development rights do not apply to wind turbines here in Wales. Will you look at this and consider applying permitted development rights to small wind turbines here in Wales please, Minister?
I know you mentioned that you didn't want to repeat yourself, but I will, and it's important for the record. I was disappointed last week to receive an e-mail from Nova Innovation, who notified me that their plans for the Enlli tidal project were being mothballed. They cited three main reasons for this, but most importantly, as we heard earlier, the lack of grid connection. This issue faces others, with farmers, for instance, on the Llŷn peninsula not able to develop wind or solar projects because of this lack of grid capacity. According to the House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee's recent report on grid capacity in Wales, securing planning consent for grid reinforcements can take longer than constructing the energy project itself. So, without significantly increasing this capacity, there's no point discussing creating new generating abilities. So, will the Minister support the call to entirely devolve energy production and break up the monopoly of the national grid, so that Wales can develop her own ability to move electricity around the nation and invest in those communities that need it? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Mabon. Yes, we would like to have much more control over the national grid, absolutely, because of all of the issues we've discussed endlessly—the need to plan it out, the need for better investment, and so on. So, I think that's taken as read, really. The real issue with a number of projects around Wales—on land, onshore, on sea—has been grid connection, and the real problems with that. So, we are hoping to be able to move that on significantly with the new holistic network design process and, indeed, with the co-operation agreement with Ynni Cymru and a number of other interventions we hope will make a difference. So, I do hope to be able to report a step change in that once we've got those interventions in place and we understand where the holistic network design process is going to take us. 
In terms of the small roof-mounted turbines, yes, I'm very interested in exploring permitted development rights for a number of renewables that are possible. We have a small complication in some parts of Wales that are designated landscapes. We need to make sure that the community comes with us on this, and we need to make sure that they're done sympathetically to some of our environments. But yes, in principle we are looking very closely to see what can be allowed. There are also some other issues people have raised in the Chamber around how close an air-source heat pump can be to another dwelling and all that kind of stuff, which we are having a good look at to make sure we have the most effective, most recent advice about a number of these things. So, I'm very interested in looking at that, but we do want to get it right so that we get community buy-in, and not community upheaval with that.
The last thing is just in terms of that planning point and the grid connections. We are going to be introducing an infrastructure consenting Bill to the Senedd shortly, which will take some of the big projects out of the current system. But again, this community buy-in point is a really important one. I don't want people to have to have high-voltage pylons coming across their land because we've got a windfarm right next door to them without them having a really good say about where and how that energy should be removed. It's often the case that it's not the windfarm itself that people are having a problem with—it's the way that the energy is taken away from it.
You'll be very aware that we need to combine this with all of the work we're doing on biodiversity and landscape preservation. For some landscapes, you do not want to underground it. I don't want to dig up peatland in order to do that. But, for other landscapes, undergrounding may be an option. It's really very much an individual route thing. So, we need to make sure that the planning is calibrated, exactly as for the marine consenting, to hit the sweet spot between the right protection for our landscapes and the right speed for the connectivity, to make sure that the communities who live in all of the areas where this might happen get all of the benefits associated with it and as few of the downsides as we can manage.

Finally, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for your statement, Minister. The big news in my region is the huge investment by QatarEnergy in South Hook LNG. It will mean the terminal will be able to handle about 25 per cent more liquefied natural gas imported from around the world. There's no question that it will be a massive boost for Pembrokeshire, and I've no doubt the First Minister and the economy Minister did a fantastic job of promoting Wales as an energy hub at the football world cup. I know it sounds off topic, but we are discussing renewable energy and the transition. So, we need to do that, and it's been mentioned already, by retaining and investing in the assets, the workforce, the skills and the technology that can deliver that transition. Milford Haven, of course, will be critical in that journey. Only last week, Samuel Kurtz, Cefin Campbell, Jane Dodds and I sponsored a reception for the Haven Waterway Future Energy Cluster. The big ambition is to achieve the 20 per cent of UK Government low-carbon hydrogen production target by 2030, and at least 10 per cent floating offshore wind by 2035. Grid capacity, of course, has been mentioned, the consenting regime, and all the other ways that the Welsh Government can and does support the sector, the details of which I know you're very much across, Minister. But can I ask you how you think that South Hook investment might be used to embed and attract further investment to the west Wales energy sector, principally our renewables sector, going forward?

Julie James AC: Thank you very much, Joyce. It's a very good point. We've been working for quite some time now with a range of stakeholders—and I know you know this—to make sure that we do a whole range of things. First of all, we attract the right kind of investment, and there are enormous issues with that. We don't want greenwashing, for example, but we do want proper investment in renewables and in biodiversity as well. We need to make sure that we have the right financial instruments in place to do that. It was one of the best things coming out of COP15—the amount of learning that was being done globally on how to get those right. It was a real relief to me to see that we were not alone in trying to make the distinction between those two things.
The second is that we've been doing an enormous amount of work, both with our port authorities and the infrastructure surrounding them, and with our supply chains, to make sure that the supply chains are as ready as they can be to meet the challenge that's to come from the new floating wind, but also the ongoing onshore wind and other renewables, and that we can take advantage of the new hydrogen research projects all over Wales, to make sure that we can get as much green hydrogen out of the new renewables that are going. Milford Haven is well placed to take advantage of some of that and have been working very hard on it.
The last piece is that we'll be doing the supply chain analysis, so that where there are gaps, we can actually proactively work, with our port authorities in particular, to make sure that they are also reaching out to people who could come in and fill those supply chain gaps, capturing inward investment and skills investment to make sure that we take the best advantage of this.
My colleague Vaughan Gething and I will be bringing forward a net-zero skills plan. That's being trialled with industry at the moment to make sure that it's fit for purpose and that it's futureproofed. We need to capture all of the green skills that we need for the future to make sure that we have one of the most sustainable economic countries in the world; I'm very keen on that ambition. And your area will be very much pivotal in that, both for its industrial clusters, but, actually, of course, for its abundant natural resources both around the coast and on land. So, as we go forward, I'm sure we will continue to work in absolute lockstep with the manufacturing industries and the Haven authority itself, as we do that. I'm very sorry I couldn't make that evening meeting, but I have met with them on a number of occasions. And if you want to invite me down there, I'd be very happy to come again. Diolch.

Thank you, Minister.

5. Statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language: School Improvement and the Information Landscape

We'll move on now to item 5, a statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language on school improvement and the information landscape. I call on the Minister to make the statement—Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Curriculum for Wales offersa once-in-a-generation opportunity to radically reform what and how we teach, in order to support the educational progress of our learners, their well-being, and their life chances as well.
But, to make this a reality, this reform can’t happen in isolation. Each and every part of our reform programme must be aligned so that we can deliver high standards and aspirations for all. The way that we approach school evaluation, improvement and accountability must change too, and, above all, we must put our schools in the best possible position to make that vision of education a reality for learners. This means moving to a system of accountability that helps schools improve their offer to learners, instead of proving themselves to others.
Last summer, we published new school improvement guidance, which puts the learner at the centre of all our thinking and our support for schools. We will be consulting on this guidance in the coming year, with a view to making this statutory in 2024.Teachers and leaders across Wales continue in their commitment to our learners and supporting our pupils to be the best they can be, despite these difficult times. Our approach to school improvement must put the learner and the teacher at the centre, and it must recognise that the interaction of both in the classroom is what makes the difference to school improvement and attainment of our learners.
Today, I want to talk through our next steps in supporting schools in an ongoing cycle of self-evaluation and improvement. My priority is an approach to school improvement that puts learners first. To realise this, we have to understand what information about schools and learners is needed to ensure that the system works. Last week, we published a report on the development of this new 'information ecosystem', and this terminology gives recognition to the balance needed in the system, and the fact that activity in one area has an impact in another. This research involved detailed discussions with schools, local authorities, delivery partners, parents, and learners, because we recognise that different partners have different requirements, and that information is used in a range of different ways, and also that data has a clear role in fostering public confidence.

Jeremy Miles AC: It's absolutely clear to me, Dirprwy Lywydd, that using a wide range of information is crucial to supporting evaluation and improvement. Isolated pieces of data, or out of context, should not be used to judge performance or compare schools. I welcome Estyn’s response to my written statement last week, confirming that they too will not be looking to use isolated pieces of information to assess school improvement or for accountability.
Equally, any requirements on schools to provide information should have a clear purpose. That purpose is, at its centre, to help teachers support learning. Information about how learners are progressing, and the progression of different cohorts in different contexts, should help schools and local authorities evaluate themselves and improve their own offer, with the support of school improvement services.We must, though, not forget the crucial importance of parents and the need for transparency of information to enable them to take decisions on their child’s education and engage with their child’s school.
The report will help us in developing our reformed approach to information to support school improvement. To ensure that we clearly put learners and teachers at the centre, my officials will be convening a practitioners group to begin to develop the new information landscape in the context of the report’s recommendations. While different parts of Wales might have different needs, there are fundamental issues that should be all of our focus. The eight factors that support curriculum realisation, set out in the school improvement guidance, embed these core national priorities.
It will not come as a surprise to the Chamber that I am absolutely clear that there must be a particular focus on improving the progress of our most disadvantaged learners. As well as learners and teachers, I will be listening to the voices of parents, to ensure that the information they receive best helps them to understand their children's educational experience. We'll be looking to streamline and promote consistency in information approaches across schools and across Wales. A more coherent and simpler approach will require us all to work together in partnership. It will require compromise and, sometimes, hard decisions to stop asking for some information where it does not support learners and teachers. But we must grasp this opportunity.
On understanding how learners are achieving nationally, whether we are achieving our objective of raising standards across Wales is a key part of this information landscape, crucial to informing our support to schools and for transparency and confidence in the system. To support this, I've taken the decision that we will introduce an ambitious programme of national monitoring to assess knowledge and skills across the breadth of the Curriculum for Wales. This is not about testing every learner. Instead, we will take a sampling approach to understand and monitor learners' attainment and progress over time at a system level. This approach will minimise burdens on schools and the education system as a whole, help provide the information we need to understand our progress as a nation and help us better understand the impact of poverty on learners' achievement and support our approaches to tackling this. We plan to begin rolling out these sample assessments on a pilot basis in the 2025-26 academic year.
Dirprwy Lywydd, finally, achieving qualifications remains vitally important for learners and will remain a priority for this Government. In 2019, we introduced new transitional interim measures for secondary schools that ensured more focus on raising our aspirations for all learners with indicators that better captured the achievement of all our learners at key stage 4. These measures, as Members will be aware, were paused during the pandemic. For an interim period, we will restart the reporting of key stage 4 outcomes at school level, including the policy of counting only first award of qualifications. This is temporary, as we move towards a more holistic system that promotes learning and puts learners, teachers and parents at the centre. It will not apply to learners now learning under the Curriculum for Wales.
I'm committed to working in partnership with schools to develop a new information landscape, including on qualifications information, ready for the new GCSEs from 2025, and I plan to provide further updates to the Siambr as this work progresses.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. Although you've aimed to provide some clarity on the issue, which is appreciated, I do still have some concerns that are echoed by parents and practitioners alike. Your statement outlines that data should not be used in isolation to judge performance or compare schools. Traditionally, of course, information on school performance in both Wales and the rest of the UK is used to judge performance and compare schools. Furthermore, comparative data only serves to raise standards of practice and allow schools to work collaboratively on respective areas of strengths and weaknesses. How are you going to ensure that losing that transparent data won't lead to a dropping in standards within the profession? And how is this new national monitoring system going to really help the hugely diverse needs of schools across Wales?
And, Minister, in your statement last week, you said that,
'We will develop further thinking to align with the introduction of new qualifications from 2025 as we develop our new information landscape'.
There is already uncertainty over exams and qualifications, shown through the recurring theme throughout the Estyn report 2021-22. Most settings face serious concerns over the uncertainty surrounding the new qualifications, which will assess the Curriculum for Wales. As such, many year 11s did not progress as expected. To compound this, in all-age schools, those between years 6 and 7 were finding educational transition damaged by this lack of certainty. Hence, the framework is incomplete, alongside the incomplete set of qualifications subsumed within a non-fully-implemented curriculum. So, Minister, just how are schools meant to prepare and adjust, with such question marks still outstanding, and when will they get some certainty?
And finally, Minister, our final concern is the self-evaluation focus of this new framework. When reviewing the Estyn reports of this year, there seems to be a complete disjuncture between the new terminology placed in the approaches of the past. When looking closely at the reports, there are distinct hallmarks of individual differences between inspectors, based on interests, ideologies and ways of expressing their recommendations, which will undoubtedly be reflected in any school or LA self-evaluation. Inspectors required schools to share with them some assessment data as part of the inspection process. However, if each school is assessing its own curriculum, as per the Welsh Government guidance, and each school has its own unique local curriculum, that also means that their assessment data will also be unique. Given that there is no scale or method of comparison, no loose framework to measure improvement, how are schools and LAs able to show inspectors that pupils are making progress in their literacy, numeracy, digital and Welsh skills, for example, without the benefit of that national standard for oracy, writing, digital or Welsh skills? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for those questions. I'll try and answer as many of them as I can. I think the key point is that there is a distinction to be drawn between data for accountability on the one hand and data for assessment and self-improvement on the other. It's really important that we ensure that those two things are kept separate, because they serve very, very different purposes. The reason for moving away from school categorisation was because that actually blurred the boundary between the two in a way that created perverse incentives, effectively, at a school level, in relation to the management of data and the choices made as well in relation to examinations, potentially, in some cases as well. I can assure the Member that it's fundamentally important for our system that there is a clear line of accountability in relation to schools.
Principally, the responsibility for accountability at a school level is obviously the governing body, but obviously, externally, to Estyn as the school inspectorate. And as the Member will be aware, from 2024, there will be more frequent inspections as a consequence of Estyn's new programme, which will provide, obviously, more regular information to the system about the performance of schools. As she's also aware from the last point in her question, there is a new approach to inspection, with the removal of summative judgments and the providing of parent-friendly reports, all of which, I think, give better qualitative information in a much more nuanced way for parents. And also, obviously, communicating that in a way that parents might more readily understand is very important, which is why I welcome the work that's been going on in relation to the parent-friendly reports.
The experience to date, as I understand it from Estyn, of the removal of the summative judgments is that the discussions at a school level have focused much more on the kinds of things the Member was asking about in her question, which are: how can those schools know where they are on the journey to self-improvement, the implementation of the curriculum, and really focusing on the practical steps in terms of strengths and weaknesses, rather than focusing on the question of the boundary between different summative judgments? So, that is the experience to date. I obviously will be keeping a close eye on that with Estyn. It's obviously very important for the success of our system that that is embedded properly in the approach to accountability. In relation to the national monitoring programme, we will now be in a process of specifying that, testing some of the approaches to that—how frequently? What size cohort? There are all sorts of design questions, if you like, that need to go into that.
The Member makes a very important point, I think, and it's one that I've been testing myself with officials, about the range of schools that we have in Wales, and the communities they serve. How do we make sure that the information we get provides a useful set of messages to us? That's a good question. It's an important point of judgment. So, the choice to be made in this context is as follows: either you choose a very granular mechanism that tells you, with much greater specificity, what's happening at a school or local authority level—that comes with choices about the burden on the system, and on individual learners across the system—or you decide that what you're looking for is a way of monitoring the performance of the system overall.And at the moment, we will need that data to know, so that you can hold me to account about the performance of the curriculum in due course. So, that will be the source of information, or a source of information, on which you can draw, and you can test whether the approaches that we are following are delivering on the literacy and numeracy requirements, are delivering on the areas of learning and experience. So, that would provide a base of data on which to found those challenges, which, obviously, we need to do.
I don't recognise the point that the Member is making about how uncertainty about qualifications is affecting the transition between years 6 and 7. I don't know how that can be at this stage, if I'm completely honest. As she will know, Qualifications Wales is undertaking a consultation at the moment about the reform of qualifications. Those qualifications will first be taught in 2005, and so the programme that I'm describing today will be ready in time for that cohort. So, it's obviously important that these things happen in a way that is systematic, and that's the intention of what I'm describing today. I hope that captures at least most of the questions that the Member asked.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement today, expanding on the written statement published last week. I clearly welcome the emphasis on how we are focusing on those learners who are in poverty, and we do know that poverty affects attainment. We don't need to rehearse that—we're already aware of it. But, given the cost-of-living crisis specifically, we are seeing more and more learners being impacted in that way.
You will be aware from your own visits to schools that schools are extremely concerned about pupils not being able to get to school because of travel costs—that's something that's been shared with us—the fact that some families can't afford electricity and food, and so on. There are also the interventions that schools have to make in terms of the problems that we have in terms of the CAMHS system and that perhaps they are using some of their funds to provide that practical support in schools at the moment. And I do think that assessing the well-being of our learners and the environment is just as important as all of the other things that we need to measure and assess. But, one of the things I would like to ask is: what will be the link between this system and the interventions that you as a Government will make in terms of tackling poverty and so on, as we do know that that does have an impact on attainment? And do you think that this will provide greater flexibility, because if you take a sampling approach rather than going through a more bureaucratic system, does that then mean that you will be able to be more agile as a Government as you respond to the cost-of-living crisis, as it affects more and more students? I'd be interested to know about that.
And also, one of the things that we do hear very often from teachers, of course, is the workload issue. How do you see these changes affecting things for the better, perhaps, in terms of that issue, because clearly, with self-assessment and so on, that can be positive for schools because it's always a system where, if many people want to come in and there is that kind of scrutiny, then the workload is huge? So, do you see this as reducing teachers' workload or adding to it, and what additional training will be provided for those teachers and what support will be in place?
And finally, if I may, I would be interested as you further develop this system, to have more information. But in terms of the interventions and support that I mentioned earlier, in terms of the outcomes for every learner, how will we learn, if this is a sampling approach, about the good practice developing in schools, because often, those schools may not be selected and they may be doing excellent work in this area? So, how will we continue to ensure that we learn from the best? There are all sorts of good examples. I was on a visit to Ysgol Nantgwyn in my region recently, and if you haven't had an opportunity I would really encourage you to go, because they know every single child in that school and their families and can provide the support and interventions necessary. But, they're greatly concerned because of their financial position, as they've spent every penny they had in supporting their learners during the pandemic and continue to do that. So, they're not one of these lucky schools that have large reserves, but certainly, there is good practice in terms of the support provided. So, how can we ensure that we continue to learn from the excellent work happening if we are taking a sampling approach?

Jeremy Miles AC: Very important questions. The sampling question is an important one. The sampling is only one part of the process. So, the national monitoring plan is one part of the new ecosystem, just to give some comfort to the Member. At present, in terms of planning that, what we don't foresee is that that will give the kind of specificity on a school level in terms of the interventions that the Member mentioned. But what it does mean is that it will show national performance, and that will demonstrate if there is a need to emphasise approaches in different elements of the curriculum, for example. So, if we're not making the progress that we expect to see as a system, for example, in terms of literacy, then what we will do as a Government, and local authorities and the consortia will do, is we will look at where good practice is happening in terms of literacy and use that as a basis to strengthen the system generally. There are options in terms of design, but that’s the most practical way to do it, I think.
In terms of the other question asked by the Member, in terms of how we know the approaches will work on the ground, well that’s part of the broader ecosystem work. If the Member has had an opportunity to look at the report—it’s quite broad-ranging, so I understand if you haven’t had an opportunity—it does explain how we will tackle the impact the policy changes and so on will have on a school level. And so that will be part of our response as a Government to what is in the report.
On the question of workload, the self-assessment is happening as part of the new system. That’s been announced since last summer. The leadership team will be leading on that, but the balance has changed in terms of the relationship with Estyn, and the approaches are much more integrated in terms of the school life.
In terms of what we’re talking about today, one of the opportunities that we have, I think, in looking at the data that we gather, is the question, as I mentioned in the statement, of making this consistent across Wales. There are degrees of very great variances happening between local councils, and different parts of the system are perhaps requiring the same, or asking for the same, information. So, I’d like to see us delivering, as part of this, consistency, and a streamlining of this, and that it’s clear what the purpose of the data that we’re asking for is; if we can be in a situation where the data can be requested once, that the system communicates better with itself in terms of how that data is used. So, of course, it’s very ambitious to do that, but I do think it is fair, as a quid pro quo for schools, if we say, ‘Well, we’re asking for these kinds of data, but, on the other hand, there will be consistency in terms of how we ask for that.’ So, that’s the aim of what we’re talking about today.
And the final point, regarding what we intend to do in terms of publishing results, some have said, ‘Well, doesn’t this just create a greater workload?’, but the option we had was either to design a new system for the period between now and 2025—. Well, it doesn’t much sense to do that, to find a completely new process within the system just in order to change that again in three years’ time. It felt to me that the responsible thing to do was to use the data system that we have just for the one year before COVID, because people are familiar with that, and that would create less work. The Government will be publishing that information, not the schools that gather it, so that’s important to bear in mind.

And our final speaker on this item—Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch,Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you, Minister, for your statement. I agree with your comments about the purpose of evaluation, improvement and accountability within the education process. They're all important procedures so that schools can improve their offer to and their outcomes for learners. I want to focus on your comments around national monitoring and sampling. As a former secondary school teacher, I'm familiar with how this has operated in classrooms in the past, and your statement with reference to sampling assessments and using these to monitor progress suggests, perhaps, a different model to what schools may be familiar with. Can you say a little more about how you expect this sampling to work in practice and what discussions you might have had with the sector ahead of your plans for a pilot scheme in 2025-26?
For my second and final question, I was interested to read the social funding research study. One of the lines there that struck a chord with my former career is the comment that Welsh Government doesn't collect any data on learner well-being in a standardised way. So, can I ask what work is being done to put this right?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for that question. On the second point, I'm very clear that we need to move to a more standardised way of doing that, and that's absolutely one of the priorities that I'll want to see taken forward in our response to both the social finance report and the Arad Research work as well. I think that's a really important part of that.
In relation to the national monitoring proposal, there is a—. Both the Arad Research and the social finance work have highlighted the need to understand, better than we do, across the system, the questions in relation to attainment and progress. As we phase out the end-of-key-stage assessments, that becomes, obviously, even more important. Obviously, only some schools and learners will be involved in the assessments. The point of that is that they don't unduly determine schools' individual approaches to curriculum design, and keep the burdens on schools to a minimum. So, it's a system-wide picture that we are looking for. It'll be designed in a way that aligns very closely with that broader information ecosystem that I was talking about. That will be developed by the practitioner group that I was talking about in my earlier statement. So, the role of school leaders and practitioners in designing this ecosystem and the monitoring system that sits within it will be absolutely essential. I want to make sure that we will be able to understand how different groups of learners are achieving, what further national support we need to provide to the system where individual groups of learners, cohorts of learners, learners defined by particular characteristics, for example, might be needing additional support. And I think the point the Member ended with there, in relation to well-being and how we respond to questions of disadvantage, will be an important—. That'll be very important data for us to capture as part of that national monitoring programme.

I thank the Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Increasing Allied Health Professionals in Primary and Community Care

Item 6 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services, increasing allied health professionals in primary and community care. I call on the Minister to make the statement—Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. 'Looking Forward Together: The Allied Health Professions Framework for Wales' identifies the changes required both by allied health professionals and their employers to ensure health and social care secures the highest quality and value from these important professions. 'A Healthier Wales' sets out our vision for enabling people to live at home, as independently as possible, for as long as possible.
The allied health professionals, or AHPs, excel in delivering treatments that are particularly valuable in supporting the complex needs of people who are frail or living with long-term health conditions. They are a group of 13 unique professions, such as physiotherapists, occupational therapists, dietitians and psychologists. At present, too small a proportion of AHPs are accessible in the primary and community services described in the primary care model for Wales.
Many people who need the expertise of AHPs can't directly access them early enough to maximise their health and well-being or improve recovery. This may mean people are admitted to hospital when they could have been treated at home, or they cannot be discharged from hospital when their acute treatment is complete. Without community AHP services, people may end up moving to residential or nursing care earlier than might otherwise have been the case, adding to the pressure on our social care services.
Today, I'm announcing £5 million will be made available from April 2023 to create additional AHP posts in primary and community services to help provide alternatives to hospital admission and reduce reliance on long-term social care.This recurrent investment supports our programme for government commitments in primary and community care, including improving access to health professionals and bring a wider workforce together in a reformed primary care system. It'll create posts for both registered AHPs and support workers. For example, extra staff in community resource teams will help implement the community infrastructure programme or expand hospital-at-home-type services.
Increasing community rehabilitation and community-based therapy ensures people can be discharged with the right support to enable them to complete their recovery at home. Community rehabilitation or reablement helps people recover their ability and confidence to do the things that matter to them in their daily life, enabling more people to live independently without having to rely on unnecessary long-term social care. That will help us to provide these vital services to the people who need them most.
This investment can also be used to develop or expand services to prevent admission. For example, this could enable paramedics to directly refer to community falls or therapy response teams rather than conveying people to hospital if they don't need it.
There are many examples of innovative AHP services providing direct, early access to intervention, community rehabilitation and reablement and other complex treatments in the community. We need to provide these more consistently across Wales in line with all our national programmes. Local authority occupational therapy services and many NHS physiotherapy services are already directly accessible. In Swansea Bay University Health Board, podiatry, children’s speech and language therapy and children’s occupational therapy services are directly accessible.

Eluned Morgan AC: We have already invested significantly in innovative community services. Our regional integration fund provides more than £144 million to support six national models of integrated care. These models include community-based prevention and community co-ordination, complex care closer to home and home-from-hospital services.
I am taking the opportunity today to reiterate my expectation that the investment we have already provided to the NHS, local authorities and regional partnership boards will also be used to bring together all local services involved in health and care, including AHPs.
Primary and community care must become the usual location for practice for AHPs. This workforce should be organised through well-integrated community services, including the full range of AHP skills. In order to deliver the accelerated cluster development programme, it's vital that a higher proportion of the AHP workforce works in integrated teams and hubs in primary and community services.
We know that many people who are older or who are living with frailty or comorbidities leave hospital less mobile and less independent than when they were admitted. This is why the recently published optimal hospital-flow guidance states that health and care services should embed 'home first' and discharge-to-recover-then-assess principles. This will enable people to return home as rapidly as possible, with access to the right community assessment and reablement.
The community resource teams that are already established in each of our health board regions, along with the reablement teams and wider community rehabilitation services, are the bedrock of the community infrastructure required to improve care for our population. If we can get it right for those with complex needs, we can get it right for everyone.
The purpose of this investment is to increase the AHP capacity in community-based rehabilitation and early intervention services. This will mean that clinically safe alternatives are available to admission. It will also support safe and effective discharge.
The timing of this announcement will support health and social care employers to maximise employment for the new graduates who will be entering the workforce in the summer. Expanding the capacity of community services with these additional allied health professional roles will enable us to provide well-integrated primary and community care, and help us tackle some of the current pressures facing our health and care system.

Russell George AC: Can I thank the Minister for her statement today? I genuinely welcome the announcement today. I certainly support the increased funding for the number of allied health professionals within the primary and community care settings. I certainly think that’s the right move, particularly for the reasons you’ve outlined. I think it’ll free up resources and allow people to be treated much closer to home.
There are a number of questions I would ask following your statement today, Minister. Just to give us an understanding of how the funding’s going to be allocated across Wales, how it’s going to be allocated across the regions or the health boards. Just to give some assurance that the funding isn’t going to be earmarked for one part of Wales, and that it is fairly, appropriately dispersed across the country. Also to get a sense of how many allied health professionals this will fund, as well. I’m assuming that this is a fund that will be annual funding. Obviously, we’re creating these jobs, and it would have to be annual funding thereafter, I assume. So, just to get that confirmation.
And also to understand where new allied health professionals would be located. I know very much, as part of the Welsh Conservatives’ GP access plan, health and social care made some recommendations around allied health professionals being located in GP surgeries. So, just to get a sense of your understanding of where the allied health professionals would be located. Would they be in GP surgeries, community hospitals, a mixture? To get an understanding of that.
The biggest concern for me is that there is simply a lack of trained professionals working within the allied health professions in Wales, so already there are some reports around internal markets, where health boards are having to compete with one another to attract AHPs, as there are simply not enough to meet the complex physical and mental healthcare needs of the country. So, just to get your view on that, Minister. I do appreciate there’s a rise in funding for training placements, but that is quite small, so just to understand how you plan to fix the staffing gap within the workforce in order to reach the types of levels that Wales needs.
I’ve also raised—I think last week in the debate, actually, Minister—I’ve regularly raised the issues around modernising our NHS digital systems as well. So, that would be necessary, I think, in this regard, to make sure there are secure ways for health professionals to communicate with each other, especially if they’re moving home to home. I think what is needed is health professionals working on patients’ case studies, understanding the patients’ treatment plans for their outcomes. So, will there be any funding to upgrade these systems to create a more efficient service that will help allied health professionals?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. So, how it’s allocated, obviously this will be proportionate to the population, so we’ll make sure that that reflects the population needs, obviously. Just in terms of how many allied health professionals we’ve got in Wales, we’ve got about 9,267 at the moment. Just to give you an idea, we’ve got about 2,000 occupational therapists, we’ve got 2,455 physiotherapists, we’ve got 159 arts therapists, which I think is rather wonderful, and we’ve got 530 dieticians. So, there are lots and lots of them already, but what is clear is that this can take a lot of pressure off not just our primary services, but also our secondary services.
It is multi-annual funding, so this £5 million will be built in for the future. They will absolutely be based in the community. Where in the community depends on what structures exist in that community, obviously. So, there will be some very vibrant community hubs, there'll be others where there'll be GP surgeries, so it depends on what's right for that community.
Just in terms of trained people, obviously we published Health Education and Improvement Wales's improvement training plan last week, and just to let you know, for example, physiotherapist training places will increase next year to 180, occupational therapist training places to 197 and paramedics up to 120. All of that means that those are all new people who will be coming on, and, obviously, that's a pipeline that is already developed, so we're building on what's there. The great thing is they'll come out trained and now we can give them jobs, because that's what this funding does.
And then, just in terms of modernising digital systems, you're aware that I spend a lot of time on digital; I had another meeting with the digital team this week. I think getting a platform for work in the community will be something. There are lots of different platforms at the moment and what we need to do is to make sure that they all connect, so there's probably a bit of work to do around that. But we've got so much being done in the digital space already, I'd quite like to land what we've got first before going on to the next bit.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: May I thank the Minister for the statement? Essentially, I welcome the intention here to invest in the workforce. The health workforce is very broad indeed, it's very diverse, and comprehensive health and care services that are sustainable do have to bring together that broad range of health professionals. It's good that we are now talking about these allied health professionals, something that wouldn't have happened years ago—it would have been doctors and nurses many years ago. But we do now appreciate that broader workforce, and it's good to see, amidst the pressure on health and care services, this investment being made.
I'm thinking in terms of this five-point plan that we'll be discussing in the Senedd tomorrow—the plan that we as a party published today for the future of the NHS—and I do see in this announcement many elements being reflected. The first point that we make is on the need for fair wages. I wonder where the Minister considers the role of salary, because there are allied health professionals who are involved in pay disputes at the moment. I would appreciate the Minister's comments on where we set that fair salary level in that process of creating a contented workforce fit for the challenges of the future.
I welcome the comments that we've just heard on training more workers. I would appreciate some comments too on providing further professional training for those already in the workforce. Allowing people to work at the highest point of their competence is very important, and the complaint we often hear is that people don't have the freedom to undertake the additional training necessary for continuous improvement, and to extend their skills. I would appreciate your comments on that.
The Minister will know how much emphasis I place on the importance of the preventative. I highlight the fact that the preventative can mean things a long way off in the future, but also preparing today for the challenges of tomorrow and next week, and the AHPs have a crucial role in that regard in preparing people for treatment, trying to prevent accidents, and so on. Perhaps the Minister could reflect on that preventative role.
And finally, there's been a great deal of talk recently about that junction between health and care—delayed transfers of care have been given a great deal of coverage recently. We need to increase that capacity for bringing people out of the acute locations and hospitals. So, can I have a suggestion from the Minister as to where she sees the role of the allied health professionals in generating that capacity in order to help take people, not to put them back in their communities without a care package—there are certainly concerns about that—but to ensure that these particular workers can help people to leave hospital and move into other care locations, including their own homes, of course?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you, Rhun, and it's lovely to have a positive response when we do talk about health, so thank you for that. These are new people who we're welcoming into the system. When you talk about funding, we have to make choices, and we have chosen to bring more people into this role. And evidently, therefore, you have to make a choice when you're making that choice, and we could have provided that funding towards increasing their salaries, so these things are very difficult, but you can't have both. And that's difference between governing and not governing; we have to make those difficult choices.
In terms of training more workers, there is training, as you've heard, in terms of HEIW. That's already in the pipeline. And additional training, well, we're in discussions, as you know, with the unions at present, and one of the things that they are very keen to see is to create time so that they can continue with their studies, and evidently that will be part of those discussions. I think it's important as well that we do emphasise that we're not just talking about allied health professionals here; there are support workers who are just as important. So, you have to have professional people to ensure that the support workers work in the right way. So, to me, that's going to be a very important element of this.
I was interested in seeing your five-point plan, and I've just noted that this does overlap with a lot of those points, certainly in terms of prevention. That is a part, as you said, of preventing problems. Trying to see who is likely to need hospital care, putting that help in place before they go to hospital, to me, is going to be vital in terms of where we go in the future. So, prevention, and these people will be vital to that.
Interaction between health and social care, well, yes, this is the area we're talking about. Social care—. We obviously need to build teams within our communities, and they will have to collaborate. They're already collaborating. So, £144 million is already being spent jointly between health and care. And in respect of the need to have robust care that is fit for the future, well, if you look at the demographic profile of our country in the future, we are going to need a lot of support in this area and, for me, this is going to be a vital step to ensure that we do prepare for that future, which is going to be very challenging.
And one of the other things that I think is worth noting is, if people do receive reablement support, we know, from the evidence, that the requirement for long-term care does reduce 70 per cent and that the care package reduces. So, this is the golden ticket for me; this is the way out, and we have to do a lot more in this area. That is part of this plan.

Jack Sargeant AC: I join calls from opposition Members in welcoming today's announcement and statement from the Minister and its desired intentions, with the outcomes of reducing the pressures on our hospitals. Minister, you've mentioned funding within your statement today, but in order to achieve the desired outcomes that we all want to see, a sustainable funding package must be in place. Can you outline to the Chamber how you see allied health professionals being funded properly in the future, so we can achieve those desired outcomes that we all wish to see take place?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Jack. And I can confirm that this £5 million is recurrent, and that means it's sustainable, that means managers can plan ahead with confidence, and that means that people will be able to feel confident, once they're appointed, that they will have a long-term future.
In addition to the wider investment that we're delivering in transformation, it's really important that we understand that this forms a part of that broader package that we're trying to develop within the community. For the ninth consecutive year, when it comes to training and investment, the announcements I made last week, which hardly anybody picked up on—. It's really important that people understand that we are making massive investments in training the next generation of the workforce: £281 million every year. This is huge, huge, money that's training the next workforce. That, this year, is the equivalent of an 8 per cent increase, because we know the pressures on the system and we know we need to get the pipeline going. So, I hope you'll be pleased to hear that.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much for the statement, Minister. I think I join with the cross-party support for the announcements that you've made today.
Just two short points from me, if I may. It seems really important that this is both preventative and reactive so that we have the option of providing support to people before, and, indeed, hopefully avoiding, any hospital admissions. I'm sure that's the intention, as well as responding to helping them leaving hospital and being discharged. For that, it also seems important to work with local authority carers, because the team around the person includes medics but also the allied professionals and the carers as well. When I was in social work, we had a team around the family, the TAFs, and it seems important that there is that team. It sounds as if that's the direction, so it's really important to hear that. Thank you so much.
The question I do have is around pay and conditions, because we need to keep these people, they need to stay in their professions, hopefully here in Wales. So, I'd be interested to hear what thoughts you have around how we ensure that they get good pay, there's parity of pay, and that it equates to English pay as well, because we really want them to stay in Wales. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I'd just like to confirm that I agree with you that this can't be just reactive; it can't be about, 'How do we get people out of hospital?' It's about avoiding hospital admission. That's key for me. But, if they do go into hospital, there's some great examples already around Wales where we have hospital to home, so support is there and they're being monitored digitally. So, you know, the twenty-first century is here. I know we've got a few fax machines, but I'll be getting rid of those soon. Some of this is happening already, and what we need to do is to roll out best practice, and then that monitoring. If you see that things are changing, you can send somebody in and it can be fixed. So, it's got to be reactive as well, but, for me, I think it's really important that we think about prevention as well. There's a lot of evidence to show that we kind of know the people who are going to take up the bed space. They're generally people who are known to us, and, if they go into hospital, they'll stay there for a long time. So, why don't we just put the support around them in the community to avoid that happening from the beginning?
It's part of the six goals programme. So, a lot of this is happening already, but this is all part of strengthening that. We've built these six goals with the professionals. This is not something we've made up in Government; this is a clinically led response to what they think needs to happen. We've been really systematic about it, and this is part of building that jigsaw. When it comes to building the team, this is happening in lots of places already, but, sometimes, I think the system's a little bit overcomplicated. So, what I don't want is to have teams of 20 people sitting around discussing Mrs Jones's needs. I think we've got to be able to trust each other professionally as well. So, you need to make an assessment and then it's shared out. But, I also think there's a lot to be said for actually—. Working in isolation is quite tough, so, actually, working in a team, I think, will help us to keep people in some of those areas, including carers. So, that's really important. And in terms of pay and conditions, they'll be getting the standard rates of pay for this profession.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for your statement this afternoon, Minister. Before I was elected to the Senedd, I worked in physiotherapy for Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, so I'm all too aware of the problems that AHPs face in delivering good-quality care in the community. I welcome today's statement and the announcement of the £5 million, because it really is a step in the right direction. I can't remember the amount of times that I'd say to patients, 'Look, I'm happy to give you a referral to community physio, but you do know you might not be seen for two weeks, and that's if you're lucky.' So, it is a step in the right direction, and I'd reiterate what Russell George mentioned in terms of how that will be spent across Wales so that nobody’s missing out, whether they live in Rhoose or in Rhyl.
I'd like to specifically focus on care homes, if I may, and the quality of discharges, as that plays a vital role in the patient flow and ensuring that we prevent bed blocking in step-down facilities. A lot of the problems that AHPs face in the community are due a lack of capacity to treat elderly care home residents, leading to a higher risk of deconditioning, readmission to hospital and a lack of good-quality rehab. So, what assurances can today's statement give that the £5 million announcement will provide a laser-like focus on increasing capacity for AHPs to regularly visit care homes in north Wales specifically, and provide the vital care that our local elderly people so rightly deserve? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Gareth. I was aware that I was speaking with an AHP expert in our midst today, so I was a little bit nervous with you being in the audience here. So, there we go.
Physiotherapy is a key part of the treatment that we are hoping to offer here. For me, one of the key things we need to focus on is prehabilitation before surgery—and I've got another expert who will understand that—because what we know is that, actually, getting ready for surgery, you're outcomes are going to be so much better if you go in in the right state. So, I do think this is an area where I hope we can be doing a lot more work in this space. And, obviously, there will be a role for AHPs in that space as well. When it comes to visiting care homes, obviously, care homes are in the community. So, they will definitely be included in what our expectations would be in relation to this programme.

And finally, Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you very much. I recently visited the fantastic state-of-the-art facility at Wrexham Glyndŵr—its multimillion pound facility. I believe there's an open day a week on Friday there where they're offering courses on allied health and nursing courses, which is fantastic. I already know a couple of people that have had a change of career to do nursing and paramedics, including my niece, and really enjoying learning there in north-east Wales.
I've also learned that Coleg Llandrillo as well will be providing courses for support workers and care workers—that level just below nursing—which is really fantastic. I was wondering, will you encourage them to work with also the new medical facility that's being built in Bangor, and help to promote and publicise these new jobs and careers that are happening in north Wales? Very often, I travel across north Wales, and I think, 'There are no jobs here.' We talk about industry jobs, but there are jobs there for people working in public services and health and dentistry, nurses—all these that are growing. So I'd like you to work with the education Minister and the economy Minister to promote these fantastic jobs that are being created in north Wales. Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. It's great to hear that that facility in Wrexham is up and running, and that they're training those people in Llandrillo as well. As I mentioned earlier, I think support workers are going to be absolutely key, and once you get them on the path, then maybe they'll want to upgrade and whatever, but let's get them into that space first. So, I think that's very exciting.
The whole point of this programme is that it shouldn't be linked to a hospital or a medical school or whatever. This is about support in the community, in whichever community it is. This is about getting that support out of the hospitals, making sure that we understand that people, generally, don't want to go to hospital—they want to be supported in their communities. That's what we're trying to do with this.
In terms of promoting jobs, yes, I think that's fair. We need to work together to try and promote these jobs, and also with the economy Minister, just to make sure people know what's out there. It's amazing how few people know what jobs are available, so there is a job of work to do. Although HEIW have got a really great portal on this, where you can go in and it's a kind of 3D version—you can go in and kind of get experience of what it's like to do different jobs in the NHS. I'd encourage you to go and have a look at that.

Thank you, Minister.

7. Statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language: Census 2021—Welsh Language Results

We'll move on now to item 7, the statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language on the census 2021 Welsh language results. I call on the Minister to make the statement—Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I've already said that the census headline figures were disappointing and not what we'd hoped to see. Having said that, it's important to acknowledge that there's more to the story than just the headlines, and there is more to language policy than just the census.
First of all, let's remind ourselves of the results. On census day, 21 March 2021, around 538,000 usual residents in Wales aged three years or older were reported as being able to speak Welsh. That's just under 18 per cent of the population. But that's almost 24,000 fewer people than in the 2011 census. In terms of children aged three to 15 years old, there was a reduction of around 6 percentage points in the proportion reported as being able to speak Welsh. But during the same period, there was growth of over 11,000 in the numbers in Welsh-medium education since the 2011 census.
There were small increases in the percentage of young adults able to speak Welsh—that is, those aged 16 to 44 years old—from 17.2 per cent in 2011 to 17.9 per cent in 2021, and there are more data on the way. These will include different geographical levels, data about ethnicity, and an idea of how many Welsh-speaking children there are in households where there are Welsh-speaking adults—intergenerational transmission of Welsh, to use the technical term. We're hoping that these new data will be released in the coming months, and I get to see them at the exact same time as everybody else does—not a minute before, exactly as was the case in December. We've had an initial opportunity, therefore, to consider these results. The thing that's blindingly obvious is that we need to look in great detail at the three to 15-year-old group. Without doubt, we'll need more analyses, and we'll work on these throughout the year.
It's worth noting, as we look at different results of different surveys about Welsh, that we see that they tell us different things, and we need to know why that is. The most recent annual population survey states that almost 900,000 people can speak Welsh, compared with the 538,000 reported in the 2021 census. Our national survey for Wales shows a substantial increase in the percentage of people aged 16 or older who have some Welsh-speaking ability. Why? The census question is quite stark and binary, and I know a lot of people—as I'm sure you do, too—who tell me, in Welsh, that they are not confident enough to tick the Welsh language box in the census.
New speakers are all-important for the future of our language. I'd like to see acknowledgment that passive speakers are an important part of the solutions for the future, which means more bilingual conversations and culture change. We're building on decades of having to choose between Welsh and English, whereas the reality for most of us is that we live bilingual lives. The First Minister has written to the national statistician to ask him to examine how and why different surveys about the same topic can produce diverse results. I'm looking forward to co-operating to understand more about this. There's a gap between different surveys; that, in truth, is not unusual. What is unusual is for one to have gone up, whilst another has gone down. And when we get the answer and when we get the remainder of the census data, we'll update our statistical trajectory for 'Cymraeg 2050', exactly as we pledged back in 2017.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Jeremy Miles AC: It's quite natural, of course, for people to ask what these latest results mean for our work. First, I want to assure you of our complete commitment to 1 million Welsh speakers and to doubling the number of us who use Welsh every day. And it's important also to acknowledge that 'Cymraeg 2050' had only been in place for less than four years at the time the 2021 census was held. It's also important to emphasise that a significant portion of that period was disrupted by the COVID-19 pandemic. Despite the pandemic, we've worked hard to create the necessary infrastructure for our language strategy, particularly in education, and I'll be making a further statement about education and Cymraeg next week.
To achieve these goals, it's always been clear that we need much more than just our efforts in the Welsh Government. All of us—headteachers, businesses, politicians, local authorities, leaders of organisations—need to take more responsibility for 'Cymraeg 2050' and make it more of a priority as an integral part of everything that we do. Cymraeg belongs to us all, and so does the responsibility for its future. This means that we may need to change the way that the wider 'we' work and the things that we do. And, over the next couple of months, I'll be doing quite a few things myself. For example, I want to take a hard look at how Welsh works in our English-medium schools.
There has been a further decline in our Welsh-speaking communities, and the commission for Welsh-speaking communities, which I launched last August, has launched a call for evidence. I'll have an interest in knowing what evidence has come to light. And I'm especially interested in knowing more about depopulation and whether, in this new normal, there are new opportunities for those areas to prosper in a different way.Social enterprises are one way for communities to grasp their future, and there are great examples of these already. That's why I've given £400,000 this year to Cwmpas to work in partnership with us to increase the number of those operating through the medium of Welsh.
Another area that's important is the nought to four age bracket. Growing Welsh-medium education will continue to be a priority for this Government. So, working with families to ensure a route into Welsh for all in the early years is paramount for the future of Welsh. But, it's also worth noting that this age group are decreasing in terms of number. So, it's important that we make sure that as many as possible take up the provision that's available.
We'll have another cohort on our Leading in a Bilingual Country programme. This programme is for senior leaders to discuss how to do 'Cymraeg 2050' in their organisations. It's about values, both personal and organisational, and how to bring hearts and minds with us. It also means listening deeply to people's stories of their own experience with Welsh. Appropriate workforce planning to enable us to use Welsh in the workplace is also vital, and all the more important for young people coming through the education system. Our partners will be just as important as ever to ensure that there will be opportunities for us all to use Welsh. That's why I've just approved more than £260,000 in additional funding for them during the current financial year.
Over the next year, I'd like to understand more about the following areas: why, first of all, do so many children who leave Welsh-medium education not feel confident enough to use their Welsh after leaving school? Is a lack of opportunity the problem, or is it the formality of the Welsh used in education, or both? But, to return to formality and Welsh, that's also something I want to look at in more detail. Lots of people have raised with me the fact that Welsh has become translationese and not something that touches them as people. And I want to know what else technology can offer to make Welsh easier to use and to make it more contemporary for children and young people. I therefore want to confirm that I'll continue to invest in this important field, and I want our computers to be considered Welsh speakers in the future.
So, my message today is that we need to continue to be optimistic about our language. I feel that the disappointment of the results has sparked a new enthusiasm to work in different ways for the benefit of the Welsh language. The Football Association of Wales and others have shown clearly that Cymraeg is something that can bring us together, however much of it we can speak. There’s more pride in our language and in our identity than ever before, and I’m confident that we can increase the number of Welsh speakers, that everyone can be on a language journey and that we can create opportunities to use Welsh in every aspect of our everyday lives.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you to the Minister for giving me sight of the statement before it was delivered—thank you. The results of the 2021 census were a disappointment, given this Welsh Government's ambition of a million Welsh speakers by 2050. I see it as a significant setback that Wales has moved backwards in moving towards our target. So, it's important that we don't allow this setback to undermine what we're trying to achieve.
Now, we're all highly aware of the challenges in terms of teacher recruitment, particularly in ensuring that we recruit sufficient numbers of Welsh-speaking educators to teach in our Welsh-medium and bilingual schools—a point that is highlighted by the census data. A high percentage of Welsh-speaking teachers are approaching retirement age while some choose to leave the profession early. Given that there aren't enough newly qualified teachers who are Welsh speaking joining the profession, this is a great barrier to delivering the targets of 'Cymraeg 2050'. According to the Welsh Government's own data, in order to reach the target of 'Cymraeg 2050' and to implement every Welsh in education strategic plan effectively, the Welsh Government should be recruiting and training 550 teachers per annum. In reality, this figure is 250—300 teachers short of the numbers necessary every year. Given this, I'd be interested in hearing how the Minister intends to tackle this shortfall. I'm sure that he'd agree with me that we need great improvement in recruitment policies if we are to have any hope of achieving our targets.
In addition to this, we also know that Welsh-medium and bilingual education alone will not deliver the numbers of Welsh speakers required to reach the 2050 target. As I've said previously, we should use all the tools available to us to reach that target, and, therefore, given the opportunities available to us within English-medium education, I'm sure you would agree that they have an increasingly important role to play. The new school categorisation system published by the Welsh Government requires every English-medium school to provide 15 per cent of teaching activities through the medium of Welsh, which is an increase on current levels, but not enough teachers have the right level of Welsh language skills to deliver this increase, and this was reflected within the census data. In the areas where education is delivered mainly through the medium of English, the numbers who use the Welsh language saw serious decline.
We have to be clear that the problems with regard to the education workforce are very complex and we need collaboration between the Welsh Government, colleges, universities and local authorities to resolve them. One area where the Welsh Government could alleviate this problem significantly is within the current consultation that assesses the criteria in terms of initial teacher education accreditation in Wales, and the consultation closed last week. Initial teacher education partnerships have a role in developing a bilingual education workforce, and, therefore, the criteria for accreditation are a clear way for the Welsh Government to set out its expectations in this regard. It's important that the Welsh Government does ensure that the criteria, which will be renewed, go far enough and are consistent with the current Government policy around the Welsh language and Welsh-medium education—a clear and practical way for the Government to show their policy of a million Welsh speakers as being a target and an ambition.
A final point on the census: if you consider that there are two censuses to come before the year 2050, I would like to know whether the Government has calculated what the number of Welsh speakers should be for those next two censuses in order to ensure that we're on the right trajectory towards a million Welsh speakers by 2050. I agree with you, Minister, that the Welsh language belongs to us all, as does the responsibility for its future, but it's your Government that puts policies in place for its future. So, best of luck to you. Thank you, Llywydd.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Samuel Kurtz for those many questions. I'll do my best to deal with most of them, if I may. I'm not going to reiterate what I said about the importance of looking at the data in its context and looking at the other sources of data as well in terms of analysing where the numbers of speakers are at present. Myself, I'm not looking at this as a setback. We have a choice: either to look at it as a setback or as a driver. On the whole, people have looked at it as an inspiration. Certainly, the figures are disappointing, but the task now is to look to the future and look at what it tells us, and to recommit across the nation.
In terms of the education workforce, the Member knows that I do see this as a very challenging area. In May last year, we published the 'Welsh in education workforce plan'. That plan notes the steps that we will take in partnership with other organisations to increase the number of teachers but also school leaders and assistants in the Welsh-medium sector, and also—this is important in the context of another question asked by the Member—to develop the Welsh language skills of all practitioners. That 10-year period does align with the 10-year cycle for the new WESPs and additional funding will be invested in the next three years to implement the 10-year plan. So, that is a clear sign of our commitment to being creative and ambitious. We will be looking again at the recruitment levels consistently and will be reporting officially to the Senedd every two years, but the data, of course, will be available more often than that.
In terms of learning Welsh in the English-medium sector, the Member knows that we have published a framework on this recently. He talked about categorisation. That's an important way of increasing Welsh-medium provision in the English-medium sector. For the first time, we have, as part of the new curriculum, a requirement that Welsh is in every school. So, that's a big stride to make. I think the opportunity that we have is to unify the Welsh and English systems so that every child who goes through the system, whichever one, has a fair chance of leaving the system with Welsh language skills. That's the challenge. It's not that we look at the two systems separately, but that it is one system that provides those opportunities for every learner. We need to understand the skills of the workforce better than we do at present, particularly the passive skills and also the skills of people who can speak Welsh but lack confidence in terms of its use in the workplace.
The point that the Member makes in terms of initial teacher education is important. I've been discussing this with the partnerships as we look at the cohort that we have of students at present. Looking at the criteria for qualifications is a part of that, as the Member suggests.
Finally, in terms of the trajectory for 2050 generally, we are committed to looking at that again after the census results. We were intending to do that anyway, so we'll be doing that over the next year.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, for this important statement today. I fully accept the point that you've made, we all know people who haven't ticked that box in terms of the Welsh language in the census. But, I have to say that I am concerned in hearing you say a number of times, as the First Minister has also done—you used the words 'just' the census. But, the census is exceptionally important. In 2011, the Government said, as a result of those results, that the census results would steer their work on the Welsh language now and for the future.
Certainly, I don't want us to give the impression that the census isn't a very important tool. If we think that 96.4 per cent of residents did respond, compared to the 12,000 who take part in the annual Welsh survey, there might be questions to ask of that survey, more so than of the census. What I would like to see is that we shouldn't discount these results, but that we take that clear warning, the warning that we received in 2011, and the Government acknowledged how important the census was in those terms. Because, clearly, the census does seek toensure that those statistics look at all of the data available in order to provide assurances that the statistics are of the best quality and value for users. So, can I ask, therefore, why there's been a change between 2011 and now in how the Government considers the census results, and what reason is there to question particularly the data this time? I would like to understand, particularly if the emphasis has been so important in the past, why this change now, if you're referring to a sample of 12,000 in the Welsh Government's annual survey.
But this doesn't help us in terms of—. We know of people's experiences; we speak to them. There were pupils from an English-medium school who were in today, aged 13 and 14, saying, 'Well, we've already missed out on the opportunity of accessing the Welsh language.' These have been in our education system since the establishment of this Senedd, they've gone to secondary school since the target of a million Welsh speakers has existed, so we know of people who are losing out on opportunities in our education system now. I was pleased to hear you say that that is a priority of yours, in considering your response—what are the experiences of every pupil in Wales, whatever school they attend? And I certainly feel that this is a question that was asked a decade ago, but, if we are serious about ensuring that that target of a million Welsh speakers is a target, rather than simply being an aspiration, then we have to see action. And certainly, I don't want to see this target being treated in the same way as the target of eradicating child poverty by 2020, where we have a situation that child poverty is higher than ever. This has to be a real target. And that's why we have been seeing these WESPs develop. And there are targets there that have been missed time and time again, and Sam Kurtz was quite right about that target. It's not just these results that are worrying, but it's the targets underneath the million Welsh speakers that are being missed already, even in the early years of the programme.
And the point on the number of teachers is exceptionally important because—. We have questioned this on a number of occasions and it's very important in terms of, if we say that we need to train around 550 teachers every year, and we're only reaching 250, then, obviously, we're not going to reach the target—that's quite clear. When I was a councillor on RCT council, I saw year on year that we were missing targets, if we are to reach a million Welsh speakers, in terms of the number of pupils in Welsh-medium education. So, I think that our interventions have to be far more radical, because, if we know that the targets we're already pursuing, we're falling behind in that regard, then how can that equate to the census results?
What I'd also like to ask is—. You refer to that feeling of national pride as part of all of this, but that isn't going to keep the Welsh language alive, and we do need to ensure that those opportunities outside the classroom are available. What concerns me with the cost-of-living crisis is that those are the kinds of activities that we will see being lost if there isn't use of them and if councils don't see their value, or because they're non-statutory services. And I think we do have to look seriously at that.
You mentioned in your statement that everyone has a role, but there is a prominent role for Government here, because it is the Government's target. So, what I would like some clarity on today is what is the change in terms of your attitude towards the census results. Why don't you refer to just the census? And in earnest, how are we to ensure that we don't miss those targets, that we do work together, rather than coming together in another 10 years to then say we need radical action when we have the opportunity now?

Jeremy Miles AC: Some fair questions there. The thing to confirm, though, is that we haven't changed our viewpoint on the census—that is what shows us the figures within the strategy. We've said that at the outset, and that hasn't changed, but you can't just look at this through one eye. You have two sources of data that are telling you very different things—and, by the way, it's not the Welsh Government leading on this; the ONS does both. That's why I've asked the national statistician to explain the difference between the two in terms of looking at policy interventions that are practical and ambitious, which is the solution, and I agree with the Member about that. We have to look at the context in its entirety;one piece of data isn’t sufficient. But, just to be clear, we're not disregarding what the census says, but the fact that it has happened in the time frame that it has, during COVID, is obviously something that you can’t just ignore. You can't just look at this with one eye. You have to look at the broader context. We will be looking at the trajectory again in the wake of what we’ve seen in the census.
In terms of the interventions that you mention, we have a choice, if you like—on one level a political choice, perhaps. There’s a range of things that we could have held back as a response to the census that we've been doing over the past year. I’ve talked about some of those things today—the education workforce plan, and free lessons for people and so forth. We could have held them back, but, at the end of the day, if these figures had shown a significant increase, we'd still need to do those things and press ahead with them. So, that’s the strategic decision to be taken. We need to increase the numbers even from the 900,000 that’s shown in the survey. So, that’s the choice that I made—to press ahead rather than to wait, and I’m sure that you agree that that’s the right thing to do, of course.
But there are things to be learned that emerge from the census. I've mentioned them already. We need to look seriously at the contribution of learning Welsh in the English-medium education system. I want to look at those regions where there has been a significant decline, such as Carmarthenshire, which, for the second time, for two censuses in a row, has shown a decline. That does cause us great concern. So, we need to look at a community level, or do more research at that level, to see exactly what’s happening. I intend to undertake a series of local meetings to look into the local factors that have been relevant to that as well.
But I mentioned in another context, in the committee, that we’re looking again at the grant scheme to see whether it does drive the objectives that we have. So, I’m not just going to say, ‘Well, we have one set of figures that show an increase, or progress’; we have to press ahead. We have some things that we’ve done over the last year, but there’s always more that we can do, and we do intend to do, over the years to come.

Mike Hedges AC: The census is a very poor measure of the number of Welsh speakers. Of course, in the early censuses, the question was ‘Welsh, English or both’. It is self-choosing. Parents also make a decision on behalf of their children, so it’s not an accurate method of collecting information. I speak Welsh every day, but rarely in debates, and I only speak to people I am confident will not try and trap me with my lack of fluency.

Mike Hedges AC: I'm not confident speaking Welsh.

Mike Hedges AC: I ticked the ‘speak Welsh’ box, but could have ticked the ‘do not speak Welsh’ box. Does the Minister agree with me that, in future censuses, after ‘Do you speak Welsh?’, you should have a question of, ‘How often? Is it daily, more than once a week or more than once a month?' I await the additional data that will identify the areas where most people speak Welsh. Where over three in four people speak Welsh, such as Caernarfon, it becomes the language used in society, in shops and in pubs. Does the Minister agree with me that, with the growth of incidental Welsh in primary schools, almost all children in primary schools can be said to speak some Welsh? The census won’t pick that up, but do you think we ought to be finding out more about the standard of Welsh of children in English-medium primary schools who are picking up a substantial amount of social Welsh?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for that. That’s very important; it does throw some light on the discussion I just had with Heledd Fychan. We need to look at and understand what these figures tell us. I do agree that, if you ask the question, ‘Can you speak Welsh?’ on the one hand, and then the other question is, ‘How much Welsh can you speak?’, you’re likely to get different results. There has been an increase in the number of children in Welsh-medium education, and those figures are higher than the number of children whose parents said they could speak Welsh. So, we need to look at that, and I do agree that the annual survey does ask questions more similar to, ‘How often do you speak Welsh?’, and so it’s likely to show a more complex picture.
If you look at where the figures in terms of a reduction among ages three to 15 are, they are in those areas of Wales where there is a lower density of Welsh speakers, for example, Torfaen, Newport and Blaenau Gwent, and I think that’s an important context as well in terms of the perception of parents regarding the ability of their children to speak Welsh in a period when they have been out of school for periods because of COVID. I think we do need to understand that context as well.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you for your statement, Minister. The census results do show a decline in the percentage of Welsh speakers in almost every area, including for all ages, and among children aged three to 15 in every county in my region. Therefore, it's very important that the broad range of local initiatives that promote the language, especially those that have received investment from Welsh Government, continue to receive support, as you mentioned.
Tŷ'r Gwrhyd, as you know, is a Welsh language centre in Pontardawe that was established with the support of the Bwrw Mlaen capital investment grant, and it's a good example of what's possible in terms of ensuring informal support for Welsh-medium education for children and adults and community use of the language, and does that crucial work of increasing people's confidence outside the classroom. The centre, through its bookshop, generates income that's reinvested entirely in the centre and its activities, including providing employment for two local Welsh speakers, but the income isn't enough to sustain the initiative in the long term, after the building's rental payments through the Bwrw Mlaen grant end in 2026. So, what is the Welsh Government doing to support initiatives such as Tŷ'r Gwrhyd, which has a successful track record of strengthening the Welsh language at a community level, but faces an uncertain future due to the economic crisis as was outlined by Heledd Fychan?

Jeremy Miles AC: Menter Iaith Castell-nedd Port Talbot is one of those initiatives that has been allocated funding as part of the statement that I made today in terms of looking at the current pressures as a result of additional costs, so there will be additional funding presented to that initiative. I was there some weeks ago for a very entertaining evening with Cleif Harpwood, who launched his book. It was a very entertaining night, and that's an example of the great community events that are happening. I think the challenge is ensuring that we move the lens to empower communities—so, what is the role of an initiative in terms of increasing capacity in the community to use the Welsh language, and creating other spaces where the Welsh language can be used.
That's why I was very pleased to be able to allocate about £400,000 to Cwmpas to work with initiatives to develop Welsh-speaking social spaces. I think we've worked with four initiatives that have done that within their own structures. That shows that creativity and innovation is happening within the sector. So, the work that a variety of initiatives are undertaking is very important, and that's been reflected in our commitment as a Government.

Alun Davies AC: I welcome the Minister's statement this afternoon, and I do think it is important that the Minister does respond to the census results and I'm pleased that he's done so, and I welcome what he's outlined this afternoon. I think it's important that he does respond in the way that he has. There are three things that I would like to say this afternoon—three priorities, perhaps, would be a better way of expressing it.
First of all, education. We've discussed education already during this session, and education is crucially important when it comes to ensuring that we create new Welsh speakers, providing opportunities for those from non-Welsh-speaking backgrounds to learn the language and to develop confidence, and also teaching children about the language and giving children an opportunity to acquire the language. So, education is crucially important.
The second thing is communities. We do know about the pressures on the Welsh language in many of those communities where the Welsh language has been strong, has traditionally been the main language, and it's important that we safeguard the future of our Welsh-speaking communities.
The third thing—and I don't want to upset the Llywydd here—is we also need to promote the Welsh language, because there are a number of people I know—Mike alluded to this—who have the ability to use the Welsh language but don't have the confidence always to use it. There are a number of contexts where people have grown used to using the English language, and I do think that we have to create a culture where people feel comfortable in using the Welsh language where they previously used English, but also that there are new opportunities for people to use the Welsh language. And I'm a lot more confident than many in the Chamber here today, and I've seen a change during my lifetime in attitudes towards the Welsh language. I am convinced that we can reach that target of a million Welsh speakers, and also that we can create the bilingual Wales that we all agree that we want to see, but we've never achieved in the past. So, keep going, Minister—I'm very confident in your abilities.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I agree entirely with the Member in terms of his priorities. We've talked a lot about education, but I'd just make two points about that—firstly, how important the immersion scheme is in terms of ensuring that anyone who moves to Wales and wants access to Welsh language education succeeds in doing that. We have a fund now, from now until the end of the Senedd term, of around £6.6 million to spend on that. Every part of Wales, every local authority, has had an allocation from that fund. That in itself is very encouraging. I was interviewed upstairs earlier today by a six-year-old girl who had moved from England, from a Mexican family, to Wales in September, and she interviewed me in Welsh, after being through the immersion system. It's more than effective; it is, on one level, miraculous, to see how quickly the immersion process can engender results. That's the first thing. And the second thing is the awareness in schools of Welsh as a cultural context for the education of young people—in the curriculum, the work of the language charter, and so forth. I agree entirely that that's vital.
In terms of the emphasis on communities, we have discussed that already, of course, in a variety of questions, but I'd just say that it's vital, as well as the question of numbers, that we do look at the geography of the language as well. Welsh is in a situation where it is a national language but also a community language, and those two things are vital in terms of the Government's policy response and more broadly.
Just in terms of his point on promotion, I do agree that one of the challenges we face is the confidence challenge. There are children leaving Welsh-medium education who perhaps don't have the confidence to speak it. There are people like Mike, who can speak Welsh but, as he himself says, doesn't have enough confidence to use it. That's the next challenge that we have—finding those people who can speak Welsh but who need more support to use it, and we need a clearer emphasis on that in the future, perhaps.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to the Minister for the statement—there's a great deal to digest there. It is concerning, of course, to see the decline in Gwynedd, for example. At this point, I have to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the excellent work of Gwynedd Council over a period of decades in ensuring that almost all children going through the education system there are fluent in Welsh. But how, therefore, can you equate that to the census result, which shows the numbers of Welsh speakers in Gwynedd declining? There must be something else going on here.
Our demographics show that we are ageing, and we know that migration does play an important part, particularly the out-migration of our young people from the Welsh-speaking heartlands. And this perhaps is the key to resolving this problem, and you mentioned it yourself in your opening statement. We have to look at this in depth. Among all of the elements that play a part in this, there is the element of housing—the lack of affordable housing, the lack of the availability of housing, and, as important, there are also infrastructure problems in maintaining a viable economy. So, I am going to ask you to ensure that the commission that you are establishing does hold a deep-dive, a detailed inquiry, into out-migration: why do young people not remain in those communities, and what role does housing and the lack of infrastructure play in that?
And finally, we also have to mention technology. I see my own children, from five to 15, and they live on Netflix, YouTube, TikTok, and so on, and there's hardly any Welsh-medium content on those platforms. We have to look at how we can use those platforms in order to promote the Welsh language more effectively and ensure that the Welsh language is a living language on these modern platforms. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for those questions. I think he's right to say that there are elements in terms of moving, in terms of out-migration, in terms of demographics, in terms of opportunities, and the commission is certainly going to tackle those sorts of issues—part of the work that they are currently doing is socioeconomic analysis. They have called for evidence and that is coming in, and I expect that we'll hear some challenging things as a result of that—hearing honest answers, with real evidence on the ground, is what's needed as the basis for policy. So, I do welcome that.
In terms of the economic challenge, I do think that we have—. If you look at the distribution in terms of communities, I believe that there is a very important role to be played by our universities as economic drivers in different parts of Wales where this is a challenge. We need to look at what more we can do in that area, Of course, the Arfor programme is doing its work, but I am very confident that the work that the commission will do is going to be very significant in that context.
Regarding investing in technology, we as a Government are already investing in contemporary items, such as the investment in VR for immersion for young people, so they can do that in a virtual-reality context—so, things that young people do identify as opportunities, to use that to spread the language. But I do think the Member is right to mention things like YouTube and Netflix and so forth. The streaming services, such as Amazon Prime and Netflix, are very important.Dal y Mellt is on Netflix now, which is great. I hope that'll be the first of many items of Welsh content on those streaming services.

Finally, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Llywydd. The Welsh language has gone through a number of challenges over the centuries, and it has endured, but what we need to see is the language not only surviving but flourishing. That won't come through children alone; we have to find better ways of normalising the learning of the language among older people and adults. We have great centres such as Canolfan Soar in Merthyr. What support is there to enable communities to take risks, to encourage authorities to invest in centres that will do more than create economic benefits, but create cultural benefits and benefits for the soul of our society? Waldo Williams spoke about hope as a master, and hope is essential. But the hope must take root; it must take root in something. So, I will ask you, Minister: how will the Welsh Government incorporate this hope into our communities?

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you very much for that. In terms of lifelong learning, that's truly very important, and what we want to do is to understand how all of the ways of learning Welsh do sit on the continuum—that is, GCSE and A-level qualifications, but also adult education. We need to reflect that pathway, and that's an important way of encouraging people to continue with their learning or to start afresh, if they haven't had an opportunity in school. So, that work is very important.
I think the Member makes a very important point on those social spaces where the Welsh language can be used, and I do think that Soar chapel is a good metaphor for this. The chapels, generally speaking, aren't driving the social use of the Welsh language in our communities, for reasons that we'll all understand. But the challenge for us is to identify the spaces that do that. If you look at Cardiff, for example, you have places such as Chapter, where people can come and be with others, but that doesn't exist in every community. So, where are the opportunities there? So, that's part of the aspiration too, and I agree entirely with the optimistic vision set out by the Member in her question.

I thank the Minister for that statement.

8. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice: Update on Ukraine

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Social Justice, which is an update on Ukraine. The Minister to make the statement—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased to provide an update to Members about our ongoing work to support people from Ukraine seeking sanctuary in Wales. When I last updated Senedd Members on arrivals in November, Wales had welcomed just over 6,100 Ukrainians under the Homes for Ukraine scheme, including our supersponsor route. Arrivals have slowed in the recent months, with just over 6,300 Ukrainians, sponsored by the Welsh Government and Welsh households, arriving in Wales by 17 January. There have been additional arrivals under the Ukraine Family Scheme, but we're not given that data by the UK Government.
Each of those 6,300 Ukrainians spent Christmas 2022 away from loved ones and away from their homeland. They may have lost homes, friends or even relatives, and, for some, they will have celebrated Christmas in an entirely different way, even celebrating on 25 December, as well as the more traditional 7 January, for the first time. We can't begin to imagine how it felt to mark Christmas in this way. However, those 6,300 people are safe here in Wales. They've found sanctuary, and I thank all those who've worked with us as a nation of sanctuary during 2022 to ensure this was the case. Around 8,700 visas have now been granted in total to people from Ukraine who have sponsors in Wales, so we can expect the number of arrivals to continue to grow steadily.

Jane Hutt AC: We are mindful that events in Ukraine can have a direct impact on the number of Ukrainians who may arrive in Wales. Although we have seen a small number of individuals seeking to return to Wales after a period back in Ukraine, we are still not seeing a significant change at present.
In December, I updated Members via a written statement about UK Government’s financial announcements in relation to the Homes for Ukraine scheme. We are very disappointed with the decision to almost halve the integration tariff to £5,900 for new arrivals from 1 January, as well as the decision not to provide a year 2 integration tariff. These decisions are out of step with other resettlement schemes and reduce vital funding to local authorities at a time of immense budgetary pressure. Under other resettlement schemes, local authorities have generally received around £20,000 per person over a three- to five-year period. For Ukrainian arrivals from 1 January 2023, this will be just under £6,000 instead. We have repeatedly called for funding parity between the Homes for Ukraine scheme and the Ukraine Family Scheme and Ukraine Extension Scheme. Unfortunately, again, the UK Government has decided not to implement this parity, which compounds the pressure on local authorities.
We were pleased to see confirmation that host 'thank you' payments will be extended for a second year. This is very important because, when hosting placements work well, this can relieve housing demand and create a support network. The decision to uplift the 'thank you' payments to £500 per month is also welcome, though we regret that this will not happen until after 12 months of arrival for the hosted person.
Due to the wider housing pressures across Wales, we're working more intensively to find more hosts who can support Ukrainians who need accommodation. We continue to urge potential hosts to come forward and register an interest at www.gov.wales/offer-home-wales-refugees-ukraine, and to attend one of the 'introduction to hosting' sessions facilitated by Housing Justice Cymru. Hosting provides flexible and cost-effective accommodation that enables people to regain some independence and to integrate with local communities. Hosts are not alone and can receive excellent support from Housing Justice Cymru’s host support service, which offers everything from practical advice or a listening ear, to support robust and happy hosting placements for both the host and the guest, as well as refer to our Welsh Government sanctuary website. We are particularly keen to hear from those who could host families or those with pets.
The UK Government has announced that there will be a new UK £150 million fund for Ukrainian housing support during 2023-24, but details are currently scant. We are keen to work closely with UK Government and Welsh local authorities to ensure we can draw down maximum funding for Wales and use it effectively to relieve some of the pressures I have already mentioned. We will be working with local government to understand the full on-the-ground impact of the UK Government funding announcements. Our draft Welsh Government budget includes £40 million to support the Ukraine response in 2023-24, with the majority of that intended to support the supersponsor route. We will explore viable options in terms of reduced funding in the coming weeks from the UK Government.
In terms of the support we are currently providing, our revised approach to initial accommodation support was implemented from 9 January, with guests informed of impending changes on 1 December. Thus far, we have received positive feedback about the changes we have made, with guests actively engaging with the 'move on' processes we have in place. Indeed, we have now had more than 1,200 supersponsor arrivals move on, over 800 of whom have settled into longer term accommodation in Wales, such as host arrangements or the private rented sector. I’m grateful for the work of local authorities and third sector partners in supporting our Ukrainian guests to move on and put down roots within our local communities.
Since my last statement on Ukraine, we also held our first Holodomor commemoration event in Cardiff on 26 November. I wanted to mark the importance of that event and the gratitude we received from the 60 or so Ukrainians who joined us, in heavy rain, to commemorate it with us. We had participation from the deputy ambassador of Ukraine to the UK, Ukrainian support organisations, the Ukrainian orthodox church, the Archbishop of Cardiff, the Deputy Lord Lieutenant, the Welsh Local Government Authority leader Andrew Morgan, and Welsh Ministers, including the First Minister and the Counsel General. The event was led by the honorary chaplain to Cardiff Council, Reverend Canon Stewart Lisk. The commemoration fulfilled a commitment made in this Siambr in May 2022 to commemorate Holodomor, and we intend to continue that work in 2023.

Mark Isherwood AC: Clearly, the horrific ongoing events in Ukraine, following Putin's illegal invasion, have a direct impact on the number of Ukrainians arriving in Wales, and will continue to do so in the future, with January's UK Government figures showing that 8,700 visas have been issued to those with a sponsor in Wales, and with 6,300 people with sponsors in Wales having arrived in Wales, of which almost half have the Welsh Government as a supersponsor.
However, only last week, we saw media coverage of the mum and daughter who fled fighting in Ukraine, but now face homelessness as their Welsh sponsor pulls out, who now have until 20 February to find a new sponsor, but can't afford private rent and fear they could end up on the streets. It was also reported that many sponsors had not anticipated housing people from Ukraine for months and years with no end in sight, and are pulling out of the scheme, where currently any refugee asked to leave by their sponsor must present as homeless to their local authority. What specific and proactive action are you therefore taking to meet this need, Minister?
Of course, this is separate to the Welsh Government's supersponsor scheme, which is acting as the host in place of a family or household sponsor, putting refugees directly into welcome centres like hotels. How is the Welsh Government, therefore, accommodating the greater numbers of people arriving under the supersponsor scheme than originally planned for, and addressing the impact this has on local services and communities?
The Irish Government has announced that it will be delivering 700 modular homes for Ukrainian refugees this year, including 200 accommodating 800 Ukrainian guests to be built by Easter, as it scrambles to find housing. Given that Wales has a long-standing affordable-housing supply crisis, what work, if any, has the Welsh Government done on this option, both stand-alone and with the UK Government?
During my visit to Mold job centre last summer, I was impressed by the work they're doing to support Ukrainian refugees, and was not surprised to learn that the refugees don't want to be dependent and are keen to work and contribute. What, if any, work is the Welsh Government, therefore, undertaking with the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that Ukrainian guests can also access relevant devolved services via a single point of access, including the transferability of qualifications and English as a second language or ESOL courses, or Welsh if they live in the areas where that's the predominant language of use?
The report on the north Wales Ukraine response, issued by charity Link International earlier this month, reflected on their journey together with the their Ukrainian guests over the previous 10 months. This includes reference to the various meetings they've taken part in with the Welsh Government and to the regular updates they've provided to the Welsh Government and local leaders about their work. This also refers, for example, to their having been made aware of various safeguarding issues that have caused concern, and to their work with the charity Haven of Light, highlighting the risks around exploitation, modern slavery and human trafficking. Minister, have you read and responded to this report, which you may or may not have received? And if not, will you do so now that I've made you aware of it?
Responding to your statement on Ukraine here last month, I again referred to discussions you're having with the UK Government regarding a possible uplift to the monthly £350 payment to people hosting Ukrainians in their own homes. I therefore welcomed confirmation the following day that the UK Government had been actively working on this when a new support package for Ukrainians of over £650 million was announced, including an increase in payments to £500 month to Homes for Ukraine hosts. Your written statement a week later acknowledged this, but also called for clarity about funding tariffs for Homes for Ukraine visa holders, or alternative funds to continue to support people from Ukraine while they're in the UK. What further engagement are you therefore having with the UK about this?
This month's briefing on its response to the invasion of Ukraine by the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales asked that Members continue to raise the Ukrainian humanitarian crisis in the Senedd, do not allow it to be forgotten, and support the Welsh and UK Governments to work towards an end to the conflict through peaceful means. How is the Welsh Government therefore engaging with faith groups regarding their response to the humanitarian, and potential global food crisis, caused by the invasion of Ukraine, as highlighted by the Catholic Bishops Conference for England and Wales?
And, finally, just a comment, I look forward to seeing you at the Polish integration support centre on Friday, when their help for Ukrainian refugees can also be discussed. Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Mark Isherwood, and I look forward as well to my visit on Friday to the Polish integration centre. Also, just in terms of links to the third sector and faith groups, I'm also very much looking forward to meeting Link International in north Wales during my visit later this week. Also, I will be holding a meeting next week with the third sector, which includes the faith groups.
I think it is important to recognise that we are pleased to be providing sanctuary for so many people. There's been a huge team Wales response to a terrible ongoing conflict, as you said. And it's this partnership approach that will continue as we support people to move on into longer term accommodation, either to hosts or into private or social housing across Wales. I've already identified the very good news that 1,200 have moved on, 800 into other hosts or, indeed, to private rented accommodation.
You ask about the ways in which we are supporting working with local authorities to provide interim and longer term accommodation. This is about all those in housing need in Wales, making sure that we use the transitional accommodation capital programme. We're investing £89 million through that programme to deliver more good-quality longer term accommodation, and it will help everyone in housing need. We're also investing over £197 million in homelessness and housing support. But we've taken the decision, as I've said, to include that £40 million in our draft budget, to continue our support for the people of Ukraine in this coming financial year. And these allocations underpin and highlight our commitment to supporting Ukrainian guests as they come to Wales.And I think it's important, in terms of that £89 million, that this is enabling local authorities to develop innovative ways in which they can accommodate those in housing need.
I think it's important to say in terms of the UK Government that we're very disappointed with the funding announcements they've made; I've made that clear in my statement. We believe the decisions to cut integration tariff funding for new arrivals, to scrap year 2 funding altogether, is short-sighted and counter-productive, because local authorities are working tirelessly to support Ukrainians and their hosts, but these funding cuts withdraw vital funding at a time of immense pressure on public services. I met the UK Minister, Felicity Buchan,before Christmas, with the Minister for refugees from Scotland, Neil Gray, and, indeed, we've got a meeting next week with Felicity Buchan. So, I'm glad that, again, Mark, we are moving forward on a trilateral basis to raise these issues. But there's no clarity, as I said in my statement, about the £150 million housing support that was announced before Christmas.
Just in terms of the breakdown or ending of placements, if, for any reason, sponsorship arrangements need to be ended early, the local authority is the one that should be notified. The authority needs to be notified as soon as possible. They'll help Ukrainians. They're all working flat out across Wales to help Ukrainians in these situations. But, also, we're funding the Welsh Refugee Council to provide support for those who need support directly, and they can in fact contact the Welsh Refugee Council. If we look at the nation of sanctuary website, the numbers are given, and they can contact and they will get bespoke advice and support on an individual family household basis. But this is about a partnership that we have with Housing Justice Cymru and Asylum Justice Cymru, who are also helping Ukrainian guests with immigration problems and questions as well.
So, as you know, this is about the team Wales approach, working together, supporting all of those who come to stay and live with us here in Wales, and giving them the support that we feel that they are entitled to. And, of course, many now are moving into jobs, into further and higher education, and we are addressing, and indeed the education Minister is clearly addressing, many of the issues that you've raised in terms of access to education. But also, we are addressing the issues relating to qualifications as well. This is something where, I think, in terms of the powers that we've got—. We've updated eligibility guidance for post-16 funding for those arriving under the Home Office Ukraine visa schemes, and all universities are keen to offer refuge for academics and students, and also working on the issues regarding the transferability of qualifications.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you for your statement, Minister. Although the UK Government has unveiled a new package of British military aid for Ukraine, the help, as you've mentioned, that they have provided for those who have had to flee the war—mainly women and children—looking for sanctuary here, is woefully inadequate, and the levels for next year are also concerning, and the Welsh Government has been trying to fill those funding gaps for local authorities, for language lessons, free transport and so on and so forth. So, during the ministerial scrutiny session at the Equality and Social Justice Committee last week, you mentioned, Minister, how you hoped to have a meeting with the Westminster Government regarding this aid, and you've just mentioned in your response to Mark Isherwood that that will happen next week. So, may I ask what exactly you hope to raise in this meeting, and what gaps are there in the support that undermine our desire in Wales to be a nation of sanctuary?
Minister, you were also questioned in committee on your funding ability to provide support if everyone from Ukraine who got a visa under the auspices of the Welsh Government came over. As I understand it, the budget has been allocated for the number of Ukrainian refugees that are expected to turn up, and not for the number with visas, and of course this is subject, as we've heard, to any further deterioration or major change in the progress or nature of the war. So, can you provide us with more clarity as to how you will deal with that funding pressure if the Welsh Government finds that its calculations were wrong? What exactly is this figure? Will funding be available if more people than expected arrive?
And finally, before Christmas, you made a statement expressing your intention to encourage refugees from Ukraine to move on from their initial temporary accommodation—the welcome centres, of course, sponsored by Welsh Government. And in your statement today you mentioned that 1,200 had moved on; 800 are now in private accommodation or with sponsors in Wales. So, what is the situation of the other 400? Are we monitoring where they have gone? And also, what progress is being made in terms of the other refugees who are still in the welcome centres and who haven't been able to move on? What are the barriers to them from moving on? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams, and thank you again for recognising the challenges that we face but also the responsibilities that we are taking as a nation of sanctuary, and as a supersponsor. This has been an important responsibility, and that's why, indeed, we provide that wraparound support, which is what was always a key objective of the supersponsor route, and we do provide that wraparound support from the moment a guest arrives from Ukraine, and it has been in our welcome centres. But also, in more recent times, we have had some refugees arriving from Ukraine, some guests, who we have also managed to find a host for, because as I said in my statement, the hosting route has proved to be very beneficial to many Ukrainian guests who've come to Wales, fleeing the Putin invasion and atrocities, which, of course, continue. We do have that responsibility.
As I laid out in my statement, we know that there are more visas that have been approved—8,700 visas have been granted, as I said, in total, to people from Ukraine who have sponsors in Wales, and we have 6,300 Ukrainians through the Homes for Ukraine scheme with us now. So, I think we are very mindful, and that's why, indeed, in terms of the draft budget for next year, the £40 million, that is based on our commitment. This is not something we had in our budget before; the funding that we've put into the supersponsor scheme and the funding that we've put in to provide all of those services, those wraparound services, has been what we as a Welsh Government have seen as a priority. We have costed and estimated the cost in terms of those additional arrivals that we anticipate. It has been very slow, the number arriving. We actually also are working with the UK Government to check the data about the numbers coming, because some may not come as a result of the supersponsor route. But our doors are open. We are here to support those who will arrive.
We do get an integration tariff from the UK Government to help with that wraparound support, and of course this is about the time that is spent in our welcome centres. But the vast majority of that tariff is passed on to local authorities to provide support. As I said, also, in response to Mark Isherwood, after people move on to longer term accommodation, the remainder of the tariff will move with them to the onward local authority. I think the reduction of the tariff from £10,500, which was when they arrived in 2022, to £5,900, as I said, is short-sighted, it is counter-productive, it will reduce vital funding whilst public services are under strain. The £350 per month 'thank you' payment for hosts will be made available to the Welsh Government for every Ukrainian household accommodated under the supersponsor route, but I have to say that these issues in terms of the cutbacks, the fact that the £500 isn't paid until 12 months into the hosting arrangement, these are the items that are going to be on the agenda for our meeting next week with the UK Government Minister, Felicity Buchan.

I thank the Minister.

9. The Landfill Disposals Tax (Tax Rates) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

The next item is the Landfill Disposals Tax (Tax Rates) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2022. The Minister to move the motion. Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM8186 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves The Landfill Disposals Tax (Tax Rates) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2022laidin the Table Office on 15 December 2022.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: The Landfill Disposals Tax (Tax Rates) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2022 relate to setting the 2023-24 tax rates for landfill disposals tax. They were made using the made affirmative procedure. These regulations set the standard, lower and unauthorised disposal rates for landfill disposals tax, which, subject to the outcome of today's debate, will apply to taxable disposals made on or after 1 April 2023.
In accordance with my announcement at the draft budget on 13 December, the standard and lower rates for landfill disposals tax will increase in line with retail price index inflation, as forecast by the Office for Budget Responsibility in autumn 2021. This approach ensures that the rate remains consistent with the UK Government landfill tax for the next financial year, providing the stability that businesses have told us that they need. By setting tax rates that are consistent with the UK landfill tax, public services in Wales will continue to benefit from tax revenue while ensuring the risk of the movement of waste across the border is reduced.
Further work will be taken forward this year to consider the longer term agenda for landfill disposals tax rates.I've also commissioned an independent review of the Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Act 2017, which will conclude later in the spring. Any findings from the review will feed into future policy development.The standard rate will be increased to £102.10, and the lower rate will be £3.25 per tonne. The unauthorised rate, maintained at 150 per cent of the standard rate to discourage illegal waste activity, will be £153.15 per tonne. I ask Members to approve these regulations.

The Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths, who seems slightly surprised at being called. You don't have to contribute, of course. So, I will invite the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee—is he expecting to be called? He is, yes. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: We considered these regulations on 16 January and our report has been laid to inform Members in this afternoon’s debate.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Our report on these regulations contains three merits points, and I thank the Minister very much for providing a timely response. I'm going to focus on our third merits point, which I'm going to chalk up as a small but very important piece of progress in terms of the Welsh language and actually having Welsh and English legislation and regulations at the same time. Because it noted that the Welsh Government has relied on Standing Order 15.4 to justify the laying of an English-only explanatory memorandum, on the grounds that, in quotes,
'it is not considered appropriate in the circumstances or reasonably practicable to lay it in English and Welsh'.
In our report, we argued that a Welsh language explanatory memorandum would indeed help any Welsh speakers who are interested in these regulations. And so, we asked the Welsh Government to explain why it is not considered appropriate or reasonably practicable to lay the explanatory memorandum in Welsh. This has been something of an ongoing theme for my committee for some time. The response we initially received, again, noted Standing Order 15.4 and stated that the Welsh Government had consulted guidance provided by the office of the Welsh Language Commissioner, and that
'As the Regulations are of a technical nature and will affect only an extremely small proportion of the population, the Explanatory Memorandum has not been deemed a priority for translation'.
However—hold on—we note that this response has indeed now been superseded by a commitment we have secured from the Permanent Secretary to the Welsh Government, and we really welcome that. I mentioned earlier that the too-often lack of available Welsh language explanatory memoranda for Welsh-made subordinate legislation has been a concern to our committee. So, we wrote to the Permanent Secretary just before Christmas, with the agreement of all the committee members, and stated our belief again that we're not persuaded—we were not persuaded then as we're not now—that Standing Order 15.4 should be used as a means to not produce Welsh language explanatory memoranda, particularly in light of the Welsh Government’s commitment to the accessibility of Welsh law. We also said that explanatory memoranda accompanying any legislation should always be made available in Welsh, and we believe this would follow the spirit of the Welsh language standards.
As a committee, we have been concerned that there may be issues of resourcing in the Welsh Government and we asked for the Permanent Secretary’s assessment of whether Government has sufficient capacity to produce all explanatory memoranda to subordinate legislation in Welsh. We are grateful to the Permanent Secretary for a prompt reply and we very much welcome the commitment that, following a brief bedding-in period, the Welsh Government will produce explanatory memoranda to Welsh subordinate legislation bilingually. 
I draw this to Members' attention this afternoon and I chalk it down to a small success of good collaborative working with the Welsh Government and the committee. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I understand that Peredur Owen Griffiths has got over his shock at being called now and is ready to contribute.

Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Llywydd, and apologies for not being ready there.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I'm pleased to speak in the debate. The committee considered these regulations at our meeting last Thursday after the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee had laid its report. We have no further reporting points to make other than those already covered by that committee and therefore consider it appropriate and proportionate on this occasion not to produce our own separate report.
However, I'd like to emphasise the importance of the Finance Committee, as the gatekeeper of financial scrutiny in the Senedd, having an opportunity to scrutinise regulations of this nature. Although we have no policy issues to raise in this instance, we fully expect any future tax instruments to be referred to us by the Business Committee.
I'd also like to give assurance to Members that, as a committee, we will continue to keep a close eye on the legal framework governing the operation of devolved taxes in Wales. This includes any subordinate legislation made by Welsh Ministers in this area and the outcome of the independent review of landfill disposals tax, as referenced in the report of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. Diolch yn fawr.

The Minister to respond.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'll just take the opportunity to thank both committees for their work. I think the important points that both Chairs have made this afternoon go certainly well beyond the scope of the narrow regulations that we are discussing this afternoon, but I think the points that were made were really important, and I'm glad that we've been able to come to a good conclusion with the work in terms of the LJC committee demonstrating some good collaborative work between the Welsh Government and committees.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There are no objections. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

10. The Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023

We move to item 10, the Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023. The Minister for Climate Change to move these, Julie James.

Motion NDM8185 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves that the draft The Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 13 December 2022.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. We've made the draft Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2023 in order to amend the Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) Regulations 2014, known as the 2014 regulations, so that victims and survivors of slavery and human trafficking granted temporary permission to stay in the UK can access housing or housing assistance in Wales. People who are granted this temporary permission to stay will be able to remain in the UK for up to 30 months. This entitlement gives them the right to work, study and access public funds, notably housing and housing assistance.
I hope that Members will approve the motion, as this will provide victims and survivors of slavery and human trafficking with important rights and ensure that housing laws in Wales are made consistent with the United Kingdom's immigration laws, which are due to change next week. Victims and survivors of slavery and human trafficking are already entitled to remain temporarily in the UK through the Home Office's discretionary powers. The amendments put forward today will ensure that the 2014 regulations formalise the eligibility of victims and survivors of slavery and human trafficking within, rather than outside, the current immigration rules.
I hope that Members will recognise that their support for the regulations will help strengthen Wales's commitment to be a nation of sanctuary, committed to human rights and promoting peace. Diolch.

Chair of the legislation committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you once again, Llywydd. We also considered these regulations on 16 January and our report is included with this afternoon’s agenda to inform this debate.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Our report on these regulations contains two merits points. I will start with the second, which noted that there had been no consultation on the regulations. In particular, we noted a paragraph in the explanatory memorandum accompanying the regulations that states that as temporary permission to stay is a product of reserved UK Government policy—namely immigration—the Welsh Government did not consider it in this case possible to undertake a meaningful consultation on alternative approaches, as the effect of the regulations—as the Minister has indeed said—is to ensure consistency between Welsh housing law and immigration law. So, we note that.
Our first merits reporting point, however, rehearses the same point I made in the previous debate. The explanatory memorandum to the regulations was laid in English only. Before we received the relevant letter from the Permanent Secretary, which I referred to my previous contribution, we asked the Welsh Government to explain why a Welsh language version of the explanatory memorandum had not been laid for these regulations. The response we received again noted Standing Order 15.4, and stated that the Welsh Government had consulted guidance provided by the office of the Welsh Language Commissioner, and so on, and so on, to refer to the transcript of the previous debate. But as we noted before, and as per the commitment from the Permanent Secretary, the Welsh Government will now produce explanatory memoranda to Welsh subordinate legislation bilingually, following a brief bedding-in period. So, we're really grateful for that clarification.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for your contribution this afternoon; it's to be warmly welcomed. It shows Wales's aspiration to be a nation of sanctuary, and these regulations are an important step in that direction.
As the Minister will know, the Local Government and Housing Committee is holding a consultation on Ukrainian refugees coming to Wales to escape the crimes of Putin at the moment. The evidence has been heart-rending, and it's fair to say that the actions of the Welsh Government have been far better than what's been seen provided by the Westminster Government.
The point remains that there is a shortage of housing here, and lessons to be learned from recent experiences. So, can we have an assurance that fit-for-purpose accommodation is prepared without delay to ensure that we have the necessary resources to welcome and home these people who truly need our support, and that we have a responsibility to ensure that they are housed?
And finally, we've heard over recent days the frightening news of 200 children who were seeking refuge disappearing from Home Office hotels in England. Will this change to TPS ensure greater safety for these most vulnerable of people, and what steps are being taken, in introducing these regulations, to ensure that children and others who are welcome here to Wales will not go missing from the system?

The Minister for Climate Change to respond.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Just on the consultation point that the legislation and justice committee Chair raised, I'll just reiterate what I said: the amendments brought about by the draft regulations clearly reflect changes to immigration law, which are reserved matters. The changes are quite limited, leaving little or no impact on public services, as compared to present. Any consultation would have limited value, as we don't have the powers to offer any material alternative approaches. I think that makes the point pretty succinctly. Obviously, I have no objection to the Welsh language issues—we're happy to do that, of course.
On the safety and housing supply issues, this regularises the situation. So, where this was at the Home Office's discretion, it now gives people the right to be considered for housing services and that they, then, have the same right as everybody else has to have those services. And, of course, it will help increase safety, because having the right, rather than having to apply for the discretion, is clearly a better position to be in.
I welcome the opportunity to have debated the regulations, Llywydd, and thank Members for their contributions. Given the clear benefit that the regulations will bring, I hope Members will support the motion. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There are no objections, therefore the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We will not, therefore, need to move to voting time this evening. That brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you very much.

The meeting ended at 18:47.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Russell George: Will the First Minister make a statement on the improvement of road infrastructure in mid Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government continues to invest in the road infrastructure in mid Wales including, for example, the £46 million programme of improvements at the Dyfi Bridge in Machynlleth.

Peredur Owen Griffiths: How is the Government easing the cost-of-living crisis for people in South Wales East?

Mark Drakeford: Citizens in Wales, including in South Wales East, continue to benefit from initiatives such as our £150 cost-of-living payment, fuel support scheme and discretionary assistance fund. The Welsh Government will continue to prioritise our spending and target action to support the most vulnerable households through this cost-of-living crisis.

Sioned Williams: What is the Welsh Government doing to eliminate health inequalities for women?

Mark Drakeford: Our programme for government makes significant commitments across all Government activity that are designed to tackle health inequalities in Wales. We published 'The Quality Statement for women and girls’ health' in 2022 and the first phase of a women’s health plan for Wales was published by NHS Wales in December.

Sarah Murphy: Will the First Minister provide an update on progress towards devolving powers for a Welsh justice system?

Mark Drakeford: Despite the absence of serious UK Government engagement, we continue to make the case for devolution through our actions supporting the justice system. For example, even in this challenging time, we have extended our funding for police community support officers across Wales.